256 voice polyphony?? not as far as i can tell!

Fully agree with the above post cello.

I've had mine for about a week now and I've have spent as much time with it as I can, but that's only a couple of hours a day with my current schedule. The time spent has been quality time however, with focused attention on learning the machine. Some observations from a newbie:

1. If you work with emulating acoustic instruments, this is without a doubt the most expressive. life-like execution from a synth, period. Hands down. No doubt. Fact. End of story. It will however, require work to learn how to play each of the acoustic instruments. Real, serious, playing technique work. If you don't have the skills and emotional involvement with music, you need not apply.

2. The strength above is also its weakness. I'm afraid they're not going to sell too many of these for that reason, and with this instant gratification world of music we find ourselves in at the moment, it falls flat. No starting or middle-of-the-road keyboardist beating out tunes in a cover band is going to give a crap about the instrument. I will be a very misunderstood and maligned instrument, at least for a while. It is only useful in the hands of seasoned pros. For the pros however, it will be the new instrument of choice, almost a requirement if you want to stay on top of the game. Once some real musicians get a hold of it and start using it (think Greg Phillinganes level), I think you will see more people buying it, but still may not have a clue about its true power and usefulness. Time will tell.

3. It still is lacking in control possibilities which is bizarre for the instrument's intended purpose above. The aftertouch routings and lack of flexibility for Solo/Percussion modulation is a serious shortcoming, but it should be able to be fixed with software upgrades should they choose to do so. Let's hope. A lot of the SuperNatural variations need multiple controllers, so looks like I need to get another EV-5 and break out my Yamaha MFC midi pedal box and start doing some control programming. The possibilities are pretty staggering.

There's not a lot of positive banter about it on this site which is sad, but not surprising given the above. It's a very deep and application-specific instrument. Great for movie scores and the like. Probably the people who are truly excited about the synth are too busy getting ready to make money with it to waste time on a forum where mostly childish bs is thrown back and forth between a few specific people.

Had to go to work, but now to continue….

4. Name: I really don’t care what they call it, but I do think the Jupiter moniker fits. And I mean in regard to the planet or the mythical god, not some previous Roland synth that has nothing to do with this synth. Everyone is so hung-up with retro analog synths; I just don’t get it. I started playing synths around 1978 and lived through the analog years. It was painful to be so limited in scope. THIS is the synth I’ve been waiting for, at least the first incarnation of it. Analogs are great, but not very broad in scope if you do traditional music.

5. Build Quality: I like Yamaha synths for their professional execution. I’ve never heard of red glue dripping out of them, or keybeds crapping out altogether. From experience, Kurzweils, given their great sound, are somewhat lacking in build quality although they seem to be reliable enough. I don’t really know about Korgs, although I do own a Wavestation A/D. The J-80 is the first synth I’ve seen that beats the Yamaha for build quality. My only complaint is the cheap pots with the JD-800 slider caps. Other than that, Roland deserves a round of applause.

6. And Now For Something Completely Different: To go off on a tangent for a moment, I’d like to say something about fanboy status. I see lots of accusations being thrown back and forth about people being Roland fanboys. Pardon me if I got this wrong, but I believe this is a ROLAND ENTHUSIAST WEBSITE! WTF do you expect? Go to Gearslutz if you’re looking for more diversity. As far as my own fanboy situation, I’ve given it a lot of thought and I’ve decided I’m a fanboy-in-training. I own a number of Roland synths, but I’ve also sold several Roland synths, so it’s not like I’m hard-core. I bought a Super Jupiter new and used it as my main rig for many years but I was never over-the-top enamored with it. Sold it in ’97 and although I wish I hadn’t, I really don’t miss it either.

7. Sound: To come back around, ahhh, the sound. Remember back in the day (if you’re old enough) how lots of complaints came from acoustic session players that synthesizers were going to put them out of work? It never happened, did it. But I’d say they now need to be afraid of this instrument when put into the right hands. Be very afraid. As for the synth side, I haven’t had a lot of time to work with it, but it sounds very good. There are some good analog sounding Tones in there, and with a bit of work I think it can stand up to real analogs. Contrary to the analog purists, I would have been disappointed with a Jupter 8 remake. Why would I want a new instrument that sounds like an old instrument? There’s plenty of great analogs out there, go get one and STFU.

8. Architecture: There’s no doubt, this is a performance instrument. This is a bit disappointing for me as I only do hobby, studio stuff these days. I’m not looking for a workstation, but the J-80 architecture is definitely setup for complex patch (registration) changes in real-time. I’d rather have a simpler method of accessing the four different sound generators (Perc/Lower/Upper/Solo) with midi. It can do what I need it to do certainly, but everything is sort of intertwined together, and you have to keep your head straight on what’s going on. Maybe it will get easier with time. It looks like it’s a powerful master controller as well with the External routings linked to Registrations, but again, I don’t plan on using it that way. I look at the architecture based on what I know and use. It’s like having four synths in one, two that are single-timbre (Perc/Solo), and two that are quad-timbre, just like the JD-800 (Lower/Upper).

9. Final Thoughts: As for the J-80’s eventual reputation, only time will tell. I think it will always be a niche instrument, but one that will have a rabid fan-base. It will be interesting to see how it’s received with professionals and whether or not all the time and effort that went into developing it was worth it (on a corporate financial level). If you look at Roland’s corporate site, the musical instrument division is very small compared to the other divisions, doesn’t make much money (and sometimes loses money) so building instruments is something they want to do, not something they have to do. If the instrument was truly built as the culmination of a dream for the founder, and the more I play it the more I see how that may be true, then R&D expenses be damned. The profit/loss sheet doesn’t matter anyway.

cello:totally agree.
Scottrod:great post and arguments!

Here's my thought about all you said:

1-about acoustic emulations:
Some acoustic tones are really great(strings...bass..some winds etc),some not(sax..guitars)..
Supernatural acoustic tones are 70 great,but this is not a revolution!
I've got a yamaha tyros 4(for piano bar)along with my jupiter,and sometimes some yamaha superarticulation sounds are superior!
Well,it's not perfect...and our jupiter is globally on the top.
But if roland present it as a revolution...it's a mistake,and they have to improve some sounds.

2-about the jupiter place in the market:
Yes ,it's a keyboard for real keyboard players...but not only for the pro because i think it's a absolute killer synth for a beginner!!
Today,everybody wants always more and more(synthesis,modulations...),but if you speak about playing in a band,there's no need to have multiple karmas inusable for 90 per cent of the keyboards player in the world.
When we speak about pop,rock,jazz,blues,world,soul and funk...the jupiter is 100 per 100 usable!

There is people who wants to buy a synth to play one key,and they spend money for this instant(beginner) gratification!
Real keyboard players totally understand what i mean:
There is a moment we don't speak about tech spechs in a forum....just about playing music.
And suddenly the J80 is incredible!

And so many proffessional keyboardists don(t have time to master a kronos to play quickly in some bands for differents projects.
They need the best sounds(this piano for this jazz song,these eps for fusion,these lead..pads and fat syth brass for this 80's song,etc..)big sounds,quickly access and configuration(tons of recalls with alternate buttons and registration selections)..and let's go!
Here again,the J80 is perfect!
They need reliability...a rock solid piece of hardware..here again the J80 is perfect!


So many people can't understand that because they stay in their bedroom to play the synths they bought...
They have money to buy tons of hardware synths to tweak some butons,push some keys...and nothing else!
The jupiter 80 isn't for them,but it's a good new!


3-yes,control possibilities in some ways are a problem:
-no VA panel..(like a VSYNTH for exemple..strange..)...and we miss some controllers..
BUT,the DBEAM alternative and tone blender are some strenghts!

Althought,remember guys what live keyboardists had from hardware synth in the past 30 years..the J80 is so powerful when you speak about all these keyboard players we've seen in a band with a DX7 or a 16 poliphonic voices KORG M1!
I've tried to adapt my playing to the jupiter,and i can't see problems in use about controllers!

About all these trolls here:
We don't have problems to share peacefully here when we speak as real keyboard players!
I've noticed real J80 users are very happy with it..and not like fanboys,we speak about music!

BUT the J80 don't have all the promotion in the medias and resellers(i'm speaking about here in france,i don't know outside..)
Here in france there is so much marketing for the kronos,because it's the most big distributor in france for the korg..and resellers don't want to say bad things...so they promote it all for the korg before!
They have so many reliability problems...but they promote it!
They don't care about roland...we are a few people to believe and understand what the jupiter 80 is..
The positive is the fact we have a exclusive keyboard we can't find everywhere..

4-The name:
For me it's a joke:
A good and real keyboard player who buy a keyboard or not for his name doesn't exist!
I absolutly don't care about the name...
People who don't buy it because they don't like the way roland call it are not keyboardists...just babies!
And roland owns the name jupiter,so they can do what they want...even if you don't like the choice!

5-build quality:
totally agree...and really a marvelous surprise when i saw it for the first time!
You can't feel that looking a photo on the net....
All is beautiful(profiled and big buttons..metal)when you're in front of it!
The keyboard is perfect for a semi weighted..and high quality..(no move between keys..you see what i mean)
I played live with my band with MOTIF XF(i love it,great reliability..),a kronos(hurghh,i,ve sold it for the jupiter),and i'm playing live all the year with a Nord stage 2(great sound and reliability too)...and the jupiter 80 is the highest build quality of all.(the kronos the badest..)

6-about fanboys concepts:
It seems easy to say bad things about roland without facts today,and it seems strange for people(who speak about tech specs more than playing music)to buy a "limited"jupiter 80..
I just want to say that for them:
Take and prove a jupiter 80,play a big fat synth brass or a big pad on stage....in front of the public.
Feel these organic sounds...feel the vibration...
And come back here to speak about the roland after!

When i'm speaking about a synth,i use it:
I had 2 kronos..the first was absolutly mad:(reboot...keybed problem...etc)
I said bad things about kronos reliability,and only that!
We are different,not fanboy..a kronos has so many things to offer..but there is something warm and organic in the roland you can't find in a kronos.
But i totally accept some people don't like the Jupiter and prefer the sound from a kronos or a motif or something else..
It's not bad or good,just a personnal taste.

7-Sounds:
like i said:all i need!!but fat,big,versatile and hot!

8-architecture:
Strange for some people,absolutly clear for me!
The pyramidal way to enter in the layers on the jupiter is perfect for me!
Because you always stay in the same mode!!!
If you want multiple layers in korg combi mode,yamaha performance mode..you always switch between different modes..
In the jupiter never!
enter or exit..and you scale in or out in the layer!
Perfect for me!

9-final thoughs:
I'm playing live(traditional keyboard playing,without thousand of modulations or loops..like 95 per cent of keyboardist on the planet) with arrangers and workstations since so many years..and the best compromise is this jupiter 80..
I love all the recall we have(registrations buttons..)..and the sounds are exactly what i need for multiple projects!
I can say,as a NORD STAGE 2 user(for live band) along with my jupiter,i don't understand why people accept the NORD limitations and don't accept the JUPITER 80 limitations(in the same price range..)
The jupiter 80 is far powerfull than the NORD(even if the NORD has great sound)but so many people excuse the nord and say so much bad things about roland!
Strange....

There is definitely polyphony shortage if all partials are used.

I did a test with a basic synth but all 3 partials used and all 4 layers for the upper and lower. No Drums or Percussion used.

Just followed this kewl JP990 edit and copied that to all 8 layers.

Its brings it down to maybe 7 to 10 notes? Not sure but any more than that I get the same note stealing issue.

Worst than that is a HUGE latency!!

If Roland is counting each Partial (Osc) as lets say 1 note polyphony and you have 8 layers each with 3 partials and divide that out. 256 note polyphony divided by 24 is a little over 10 notes. Not counting the FX which I am sure lowers it more or affects the latency.

I know it may not be practical for all partials to be used but I certainly would like to know if I needed to use them all that I could without having a major polyphony or note stealing issue as well as a latency issue.

The manual does however let you know there are conditions that may lower the 256 notes but they don't say how its calculated.

Made the JP990 from link below.

http://m.matrixsynth.com/2012/04/roland-jupiter-80-80ies-pads.html

I know it may not be practical for all partials to be used but I certainly would like to know if I needed to use them all that I could without having a major polyphony or note stealing issue as well as a latency issue.

If you stack all 10 synth layers with all 3 partials on you'll end up with 7 notes of poly. That's 30 osc per key. When I used my own patch and registration from an init, I didn't sense any latency. Operating at the extremes, you can hear some effects on the ends of notes if you just rapid fire 7-8 note chords. You can play more than 7 notes btw...I think the jupiter is thinning the tones so it can sound additional pitches. Who knows it hard to discern this stuff amid the cacophony of 200+ oscs sounding at the same time.

Devnor wrote:

I know it may not be practical for all partials to be used but I certainly would like to know if I needed to use them all that I could without having a major polyphony or note stealing issue as well as a latency issue.

If you stack all 10 synth layers with all 3 partials on you'll end up with 7 notes of poly. That's 30 osc per key. When I used my own patch and registration from an init, I didn't sense any latency. Operating at the extremes, you can hear some effects on the ends of notes if you just rapid fire 7-8 note chords. You can play more than 7 notes btw...I think the jupiter is thinning the tones so it can sound additional pitches. Who knows it hard to discern this stuff amid the cacophony of 200+ oscs sounding at the same time.

Assuming the Natural Synth are actually PCM's I am trying to picture how the jupiter can actually load all the same PCM 24 times if we just refer to the Natural Synth Partials. IF for example I use the same LPF1 on all 24 partials does that mean the one PCM is shared in each instance of the tone or are the 24 separate pcm's which are loaded and ready to play?

The other two remaining layers which can only be natural acoustic PCM's as far as I know, are actually 3 OSC or 1 OSC for each of those layers?

I am not 100% sure of this but if its 24 OSC for the Natural Synth layers then where are the other 8 OSC coming from? Assuming the last two layers are restricted to Natural Acoustic only and if they are 3 OSC each then that is a total of 30 OSC in all not 32 correct?

Do the effects lower the polyphony to or it just plays a role in Latency?

Thanks for replying

Assuming the Natural Synth are actually PCM's

There are not PCM like you see it:
There are modelised analog waveforms in a VA circuit(filter,amp lfo etc..)or pcm waveforms..
But i don't think it's different for polyphony(3 analog modelised waveform or 3 pcm are 3 notes in a layer!)

am trying to picture how the jupiter can actually load all the same PCM 24 times if we just refer to the Natural Synth Partials. IF for example I use the same LPF1 on all 24 partials does that mean the one PCM is shared in each instance of the tone or are the 24 separate pcm's which are loaded and ready to play?

I don't think the jupiter engine is able to find the same pcm partial for less polyphony..and share it in different layers.
I think it's 24 separate pcm!

Do the effects lower the polyphony to or it just plays a role in Latency?

I don't think so..
But who have the answer?
As users,we don't have information from roland for "in deep cpu usage "in the jupiter....(or i missed it).
So only roland know it!

I have a simple vision:
1 partial supernatural synth note or 1 supernatural acoustic note=1polyphony note..but maybe i'm wrong..

I don't buy the "256" number myself but that was not the reason why I decided to buy a JP80, it was the sound.

What is a bit silly, is offering registrations that push so far to the limits of the machines polyphony
that strange artifacts are obvious, evident in the OP's list of Reg's that perform badly and they
most certainly do.

However, this does happen on every synth that I've ever owned so the simple answer
is to NOT have so many active sounds stacked up and to edit the ones that have
down to sensible numbers.

The most polyphony that I've had available before this from hardware was 64 - which in practical
use was actually 32 .... so I'm more than happy anyway.

I made a fantastic Vangelis type lead brass sound that is just one tone of three partials.

Split that with a nice single warm pad down the bottom and you can play huge amounts of notes.

IMO - the more "pure" the signal, the more it cuts through, that single tone sounds massive and
has a great depth to it, no need for dozens of layers and "mush".

While I'm talking about the "sound" of the JP, I'm using it on several projects including an album
right now and I'm really blown away with the clarity of the bottom end coming from the XLR outputs.
It really has a great low end and that's "flat" - no eq on the machine or the desk !!

Marty.

I agree there is no need to fill up and use all 30 OSC. It is overkill. The JD990 link I posted is just 1 tone 3 partials and its sounds fantastic.

I was just curious of its lets say limitations in respect to the 4 parts, 10 layers, 30 OSC.

lekanout wrote:

I can say,as a NORD STAGE 2 user(for live band) along with my jupiter,i don't understand why people accept the NORD limitations and don't accept the JUPITER 80 limitations(in the same price range..)
The jupiter 80 is far powerfull than the NORD(even if the NORD has great sound)but so many people excuse the nord and say so much bad things about roland!
Strange....

Yes, the Nord is probably the best "competitor" to the Jupiter. It is a bit surprising to see so many "Jupiter 80 vs. Kronos" comments on various boards, when the Jupiter really is much closer in concept to the Nord Stage 2... performance boards, not workstations, and designed accordingly.

But they have their strengths in different areas. The Roland is the more capable VA synth, and I think its interface is better suited than Nord's for on-the-fly patch selection and manipulation of splits and layers, and most of its acoustic instruments are better than Nord's equivalents. OTOH, the Nord has the more visceral knobby interface, and sonically has the edge in pianos, organs, some of its other "vintage keys," and it has the ability to load custom samples into it. Plus the unweighted version weighs barely more than half as much as the Jupiter 80. So for a high end "bread and butter" gigging board--which, in a sense, is one of the main markets they're both addressing--well, I can see why the Nord is your choice for your live gigging, and for gigging musicians who can't afford both, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Nord as the bigger seller.

I think a really good gigging combination would be a Nord Electro 3HP and a Jupiter 50 (using MIDI to play the Nord's organs from the Roland's action). The two boards together weigh under 50 lbs, and you'd have the VA synth and SN acoustic sounds of the Jupiter 80 combined with the pianos, organs, and sample playback functions of the Nord. (That Nord can only play one sound a a time, but for times you may need piano and organ simultaneously, you could always fall back on the Roland to provide the "secondary" piano or organ behind the Nord.) I always like to gig with both a weighted and unweighted board anyway.