Bug Report: Serious Bug with Phrases & non-4/4 Time Sigs

shakil:

TAW... why do you have to jump into every bug reported and try to justify it's not a bug... come on man!! If this is by design... then it's another flaw in Fantom-G's design.

I will agree that it's bad implementation, and certainly confusing, and that it should be addressed.

But a "bug" is, by its very definition, something that is inconsistent to the way a product was designed.

The Fantom-G has a few bugs, like how if you switch a rhythm set's Wave Group type from "INT" to "SMPL", the machine won't let you without pressing ENTER to open the parameter list.

This isn't a bug. It's "confusing implementation". Or if it really affects you, "poor implementation", or worse, a "flaw".

By saying "it's not a bug", I wasn't defending the G as much as explaining how the thing works.

Unfortunately, because phrases are independent of the song, the song's measures, tempo, and time signature don't apply.

It's true that a grid resolution parameter in the phrase edit screen precludes time signature changes that span the phrase, but it'd be a big step forward.

... This is a defect TAW (Big/Small depends on how much it hampers your workflow). I think piaknow had the right idea ... Change the grid resolution or 'place-markers' to match the time-signature in phrase mode (The Fantom X does this and remembers pattern time-signatures and count the correct number of clicks per measure when the beat track changes the time-signature).

The reason it's a bug? Everything will work based on this ... for example Quantization ... how do you quantize? This should be based on grid resolution, correct? Isnt that part of the design - To handle all possible time-signatures?

Of course one can export things to a DAW and work on it there, and re-import it back, it will still work fine - because sequencer resolution never changes. But it's an extra step (many actually).

Manish

"Defect?" That sounds like a broken screen or distorted outputs.

Quantize will still work because it's independent of time signature... unless you specify measures for quantization, in which case the measures are all 4/4. Yes, lame.

Hmm... This one's gonna be tough for Roland to fix. It almost appears that the whole relationship between phrases and songs would have to be recoded. Phrase edit grid resolution would probably the best way to maintain current workflow, at least until a better solution surfaces.

Well, I think I might dust off Cakewalk 9 and do some editing.

But, at least I can start my songs in the G now better than before.

And we have SMF export to use now...

I wonder what's blocking them from just letting phrases have a beat track? Aren't they really just midi files at the end of the day anyway?

Guess I'm gonna have to turn to Reaper for my sequencing duties

b.t.w. bug, defect, limitation, ... I guess you could justify this however you want, but to me it felt like a bug, I couldn't believe that Roland would basically screw over anybody that was using anything other than standard time.

I mean jeez, who needs "accurate microscope functionality" more than prog nerds?!

... The fantom X doesnt have a beat track per phrase/pattern, that is per song, but you can specify a time signature per each of either or both (song + pattern/phrase).

Pg 220 of the FG Owners manual says it very clearly - You cannot store TEMPO or TIME SIGNATURE per phrase.

Im sure that Roland will fix it - I cannot believe that this is how they would want it to work!

Manish

"You cannot store TEMPO or TIME SIGNATURE per phrase."

Yes but I guess that if you create a phrase within a song when the time signature is, say 3/4, then when the phrase is inserted in another song with the same time signature (=3/4), you must be able to see the phrase correctly in the Microscope screen and edit it ok. Can you do this or not?

Another thing I wanted to point about the Sequencer is something I've said before: what about the markers? Why can't we have a decent resolution for marker-based editing? Why on earth do we have to accept the fact that the only points to place a marker is at the begging of a measure? I don't know whether it's a bug or not (terminology is something that I don't care too much), but it's annoying, and it's something that definately has to be fixed, period.

cyclops: nope, no matter whether you insert the phrase into another song or not, you will never be able to read the phrase correctly in Microscope Edit. The first beat of your second bar of 3/4 will show up as the fourth beat of the first "bar" of 4/4.

It's annoying that people have the opinion that it is only prog rockers that care about multiple time signatures, and this isn't that big of a deal. Just try to sequence "Strawberry Fields, All You Need Is Love, or (God Forbid), Could I Have Ths Dance". Getting a song like this done in a timely manner is a headache to say the least. I would even be remotely happy if Roland included some kind of beat calculator so at least I can find the measure I want to edit.
Here is one,...just try to edit quantize errors! It's like walking around in an unknown room full of furniture in the dark!
I wrote about this flaw, bug, or oversight back in July, and it just seemed like this wasn't a need by most Roland users. I just assumed I was spoiled with my Motif XS and I didn't really understand Phrase sequencing. But I ask myself, "Why would I need to copy a phrase from All You Need Is Love into a different song"? Maybe Roland assumes that most of the users will create generic rythm phrases that can be moved around from song to song. (Kind of like programmable arranger keyboards). Maybe I'm just "Old School". I will say however that these os udates excite me with every new offering. Roland, keep listening to your fans! We are loyal, we are on your side, and are excited about the excellent keyboard the FG is becoming!
Blessings,
firstlovedan

Don't really understand the situation here. I write 6/8,12/8 song into 4/4 signature. all you need to do to change tempo slower on */8 timing. The most important is to know count per beat. I done all these in my S88, logic or sonar.

In other way, write a drum kit phase which closer to what you want. Copy the loop over and over again to the length you required. Record your play. It is much faster and accurate than listen to Tick-Dot-Dot-Dot.

The problem with that is you cannot really compose music the way music is supposed to be written without a standard to record to. Knowing how many beats per measure is paramount when composing. I guess we could just get rid of beats per measure and make everything 1/1. For that matter, we don't even need a tempo or clock, just turn off the click, leave the tempo at 120, and make your own click track witha beat loop! The point is, if you are recording legitimate pieces of music, and especially if you are in a professional studio environment as I am, and need to sync your sequences with a multitrack/pro tools, it should be a standard function to be able to record and edit in microscope mode to multiple time signatures.
firstlovedan

I understand TAWs hint that this one is not easy to implement with the G's phrase concept.

But wasn't the phrase concept chosen for some gains in flexibility? And now agian and again it shows it's total unflexibility in basic sequencing matters? There were problems with moving phrases across tracks, there are problems cutting phrases with 'scissors and glue', I still can't drag and drop a phrase across tracks with OS 1.20 etc, and now the behaviour of the G sequencer prevents any normal way of treating non 4/4 time signatures?

I was quite open for the new concept with kind of "why not" and "let's see what it brings us" attitude, but it is beginning to walk severely on my nerves now.

I have just begun transcribing John McLaughlin's "Senor C.S.", a song in 6/4, and ran into the same time signature problem. I agree with TAW that it is perhaps no bug in a purely technical sense (you can record different time signatures), but it surely is a *major* user interface flaw, and totally unacceptable to musicians in the present form. Nobody can seriously expect a musician to edit an anyway complicated 6/4 groove across ridiculous 4/4 grids!

That is not at all a matter for progrockers only, it's a matter for all serious musicians. Errhh, by the way, does hip hop and dancefloor know anything besides 4/4? ))

jimknopf:

I still can't drag and drop a phrase across tracks with OS 1.20 etc.

You mean with the mouse? I can drag a phrase to a different track—From the Song Edit screen, select the phrase, hold SHIFT, and cursor to the track on which you want to place it.

Or maybe I'm missing something.

I meant the mouse.

I'm glad it works principally now, but it's much more useful to do it one-handed with a mouse than using shift-cursor (or cut and paste in single steps with the cursor)...

There should be an option to set a proper time signature grid in microscope. Anything more would only complicate things further. Phrases are independent from a master track and reusable. Therefore they shouldn't have inherit time signatures.
(someone may wish to put 7/8 ones into 3/4 song for an example)