Skipback SCAM-pling!

Hi Steve.

Thanks for the reply. As I'm no digital sound theorist, there certainly could be tonal changes in the sound by dropping bits, especially if the 24-bit signal is very hot. And, again, I'm not positive this is how Roland is getting a 24-bit signal into a 16-bit sample. It's just an educated guess. However, the real point of this whole thread is that, regardless of how Roland gets a 24-bit signal into a 16-bit sample, when it plays back that 16-bit sample, it's quieter, partially because that 16-bit sample is going through a 24-bit engine.

I'd be curious as to the response you receive from Roland UK, though I imagine that, to get a definitive answer, they'd need to contact Roland Japan and speak directly to the Fantom engineers (an unlikely circumstance I'm afraid).

In any case, I enjoy the lively discussion. Thanks everyone!

Regards,

Nathan Sheldon
http://www.nathansheldon.com/

Nathan and Steve,

This is one of those interesting discussions. . . . and mucsusn brings up what I feel is the prime point. . . . how does it sound?

I had come across a site some time ago when I was researching which workstation/soundcard to purchase which had a 'test' on 24 bit to 16 bit conversion. You may find it to be of passing interest and it relates to some of the subject matter discussed in this thread. It can be found here.

I'm going to go back and retake the test and also check out Arny Kreuger's test also. If any of you check this out, please let me know what your thoughts are.

Bassman

Personally, I think it sounds fine ...

For me, skip-back sampling is more for capturing potentially lost ideas, etc to listen to them later and maybe ty to recreate them ... in that regard it is useful ... (I just wish you could capture audio longer than 40 seconds ... it's just enough, but rare TOO MUCH ... which means a lot of lost jamming ... )

But since I just got an Alesis Fusion 6HD (eight track simultaneous HD recording) ... I'm going to start recording my other synths each on its own track/s so I get a more individualized recording ... and I can keep the recorder going longer (believe it or not, I don't have a decent audio interface for my computer; I save everything into the Fantom and transder USB to the computer ... )

Redoing my studio today/tomorrow ... I can already start to see the Fantom being eclipsed a little by the Fusion ...

in fact, I drove two hours yesterday to jam with an electronic musician I met on another board, and though I took my ENTIRE setup (four boards, 1 sound moodule, mixer, mic stand/mic AND laptop) ... and even though I knew it the least ... I used the Fusion the most ...



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Roland Fantom X7, Alesis Fusion 6HD, Novation X/A-Station 25, Alesis Micron

Nate; Waiting on an answer, as you say Roland Japan will probably need to be contacted, but I've had great service from the Roland UK guys before (with the piano issue - if you remember!)

Bassman - that's my point, I also think if it sounds OK hence I'll be surprised if the samples are being truncated. Albeit quiter which can be corrected, but that's OK. Like the link BTW! Over my very poor computer speakers I can't tell the difference, they need to played on a good hifi.

Diametro; How's that fusion? I've got to say I was completely underwhelmed by it and couldn't quite see the point, except that it's good value.

Steve

I just want to go on record again by saying that I have never noticed any decrease in volume or depth after sampling, resampling, or skip back sampling. Wasn't the difference a matter of settings in the "albeit called, CMOS"? Or have I missed something? Does this issue now only apply to X owners?

Signed, "They shot that bastard on purpose because of arrogance".╘2006 Dabe

Honestly, I don't notice much of anything with the volume of samples either.

Stevie,

I'm really loving the Fusion, and I haven't really spent a heck of a lot fo time with it ... It really sounds great, and different in a way that complements the Fantom and my other synths ... I like the convenience of having another sequencer/recording source ...

Where did you demo it? How often? It took me many, many turns with the Fusion to get to like it ... and really, it was the low, low price that hooked me.

And it's fairly important to load the preset bank 5/hollow sun sounds, which may be loaded on a demo fusion ... they weren't on the machine I'd been demoing. They make a huge ifference.

I've only had it a week, but I feel I have a handle on most of its features already, and it pretty much operates as advertised.

I can't wait to dive in and start creating programs that take advantage of the difference synthesis types. You really can tell the difference when one particular synth engine is firing away. And some of the mixes (or performances/combis) that combine the difference synth types really sparkle, shine and bark.

I'm not sorry at all I picked one up.

Part of the reason I bought it though wasn't necessarily to replace everything in my rig, but to use it as a jamming board ... I like to play out of the studio, and the Fusion has just about everything I could need to feel comfortable with just one board. And I don't want to rip up the rig every time I want to jam with friends ...

One thing I love are the four trigger pads ... they aren't as versaltile as the Fantom's ... they are placed right under the knobs, so as a performance controller, they are a little more useful ...

I've even warmed to way it looks ... it's actually very well contstructed ...



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Roland Fantom X7, Alesis Fusion 6HD, Novation X/A-Station 25, Alesis Micron

"I've even warmed to way it looks ... it's actually very well contstructed ..."

LOL you sound surprised! I know that many a tale had been told about Alesis longevity and build, good to see they seem to have taken it on board, mind you, bet you can't use it as a battering ram AKA the X8?!

Jokes aside, I've also bought my first piece of Alesis kit - an AES/EBU to ADAT converter. I'm really impressed with it's performance. Rock steady conversion, good price and reasonably well contructed. I've been able to take all the digi SPDIF outs of my gear (X8, XR, XT, PodXT pro (anything else with X in it?!)) and transfer them all to my DPS24 via ADAT. Which I can then use a patchbay to route any source to any desitnation with no D/A A/D conversion - heaven!

I played the Fusion both at Sounds Live (I think) and Digital Village - standard soundset at both. As you say, the newer soundbanks seem to offer much more. Glad to hear you're getting on with it.

Steve

pianodick,

I must admit that one of the things I noticed after using the sampling function in my X6 for the first time was the decrease in volume. I then commenced to experiment with the Normalize and Amp parameters, and found Normalize usually did it. Amping definitely introduced clipping issues, etc.

I also found the Emphasis function to be useful at times. It 'restored' some of the brightness to the sample. I haven't heard about the CMOS thing. . . . was that brought out earlier in a discussion when the Fantom S first hit?

Steve: Yeah, the link and tests are fun to check out. I've acquired a set of Event TRX8 monitors since I last checked it out a couple of years ago, so I'm going to put on my 'Audiophile snob' hat and listen to things again. I'm sure I'll be able to discern even the slightest change in bit structure.


Bassman

bassman, well CMOS might not be the correct term but when nathan I believe it was, came up with the correct key strokes to get into the bowels of the machine Quinnx and I found we had different settings and deduced that to be the reason for some machines to have sound differences in the sampling process. I honestly can't remember what thread that was in but it is here somewhere in the forum. I will dig around my music room and find those key strokes and get back on this.

Signed, "They shot that bastard on purpose because of arrogance".╘2006 Dabe

pd,

I think it was the Service Menu settings, now that you mention it. I'll take a look. . .

Bassman

I found the thread here. Good info. Quinnx does speak about resampling quality, etc.

Think I'll go mess around with my X and see what I get.

Bassman

Yes we both posted our settings and indeed now that you remind my alzheimer's mind it was service menu and not cmos, and there were notable differences in the various numbers. I thought the problem was resolved then. Nice to read your font by the way. I wish someday we could all afford to meet at some central point and look each other in the face. I think it would be an amazing convention. "IF ROLAND WAS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR DEDICATED BUYERS THEY WOULD ESTABLISH A BUYER APPRECIATION SEMINAR AT AN AFFORDABLE PRICE". JMIO

Signed, "They shot that bastard on purpose because of arrogance".╘2006 Dabe

Hey nathan, since you appear to have seen the V-Synth service manuals, any chance you might know the magic key combo to get the V-Synth service menus? We know them for the Fantoms, but it would be cool to dig into the V-Synth this way too..

Error 144 - Reboot y/n?

People here seem to think Roland made a questionable design decision in resampling the Fantom's 24-bit audio path at 16 bits, resulting in a decrease in volume, but I can testify that this isn't a strange solution.. Ensoniq did the same thing with their EPS and ASR series samplers (and those guys knew their stuff!)

As Ensoniq explained in their (excellent) manuals, it was indeed a strategy to avoid clipping. Imagine sampling your phrase which is at nearly 0dB, then replaying that at full velocity, along with other voices.. things would just get louder and louder. As a result, they also had a NORMALIZE function for post-processing samples.

Error 144 - Reboot y/n?

"IF ROLAND WAS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR DEDICATED BUYERS THEY WOULD ESTABLISH A BUYER APPRECIATION SEMINAR AT AN AFFORDABLE PRICE".

I agree. Consider this the start of the petition.

Bassman