V-Synth

Is it possible 16 track sequencing with diffrent V-synth pac

Re: Is it possible 16 track sequencing with diffrent V-synth

18 May 2006, 20:01
thanks, I think we are on the same page about how it should be done. If I try it I'll post an update. I'm lucky because I tend not to use effects as much as COSM so the patch-per-channel approach has been working well for me lately. I don't push it past a few patches, so I haven't yet run into polyphony limits.

As for the "can only edit channel 1", this one doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If your sequencer is sending a PC for each channel to the V-Synth, then when you want to edit the patch on channel 3, you just dial in that patch, edit it, save it out, then rewind the sequencer and play the PC messages again. If you manage the layering using a sysex dump, then it's very fiddly to edit one of the other-than-channel-one patches.

-illiac

Re: Is it possible 16 track sequencing with diffrent V-synth

19 May 2006, 11:15
illiac,
When you refer to "can only edit channel 1", I assume you are speaking of using the multitimbral "parts" approach.

first off, there seems to be a mis-use or misunderstanding in several posts. the live (editable) patch is in *part* one, not *channel* one. each part can be on any midi channel.

i am not sure i really understand the approach you descrbie here. why is it different to a PC for each channel rather than a sysex? can't you just re-dump the sysex after an edit?

and when you say "dial up", you still have to put the patch into part 1 at which point the effects of that patch come into play.

also, sometime it can be important to edit the patch while listening.

i am going to post another message with yet another suggestion - as a workaround for those who wish to get "multitimbral" with the V-synth.

a multi-timbral approach

19 May 2006, 12:10
I am among those v-Synth users who was initially a bit frustrated with using it as a multi-timbral (MT) device.

I have come to realize not to expect much in that regard.
First of all, the voices will run out, so I would never expect to use more than about four parts.

Even so, sometimes it is convenient to use multiple parts, especially when you desire to edit MIDI of parts that are musically interactive.

Here is a desription yet another workaround.

The main sources of frustration are

1. that only the patch in part one is editable (not channel one - a common mis-statement). (Part - channel assignment is done in the system mode).

2. the effects that are in the part1 patch are used by all parts.
however, note that the routing (send levels) is maintained by all patches.

this approach works best if the patches are not too dependant upon the effects section for the primary sonic characateristic. (for example, distortion, hard compression, or heavy eq boosting.)

in other words, for MT effects should be thought of more traditionally, as in reverbs and delays, chorus / phasers. (though it is FUN and contructive to apply whacked effects to all the parts).

OK, so that said, here is the main kernel of this approach:
do NOT use part one in the sequence.

i.e. use part one as an editing area, and also in "run time" as the patch that holds your effects config.

example. you want three parts, so you plan to use:
part2 (channel 2)= Bass
part3 (chan3)= pads
part4 (chan4) = lead

you have not necessarily set this up yet, but that's the plan.

ok, so first you should create and store a patch that will hold the effects you want to use. maybe you will accumulate a library of patches for this purpose. this we will call the runtimeEffectsPatch

in part one, you select / edit your bass patch, and remember, don't depend too much on what it's effects settings happen to be. (in fact, you could use data transfer to copy the effects from the runtimeEffectsPatch). play in your bass part, and freelyedit the patch since it's in part1. you may also wish to set up controller routings so that youcan "tweak" the patch, even when it gets put into another part.

when you are ok with the bass part and sound, store the patch and recall it in part two, and at the same time switch the midi output of the track to vSynth channel2. this whole process can be done in several ways. it may work to dump the patch via sysex , or write a PC while still on channel ONE, then swtich channel and run sequencer, and voila, the patch is in part2.

(this approach will involve a lot of switching of patches and channels, so automating the patch changes, including that of restoring the runtimeEffectsPatch, will optimise your efficiency)

ok, now you got the bass on part2. you now repeat the process with another part. in partONE, you create your pad sounds, play it, play with it, (make control assignments), maybe transfer the effects from your runtimeEffectsPatch.
when happy, dump or store, switch midi channel of sequencer track to 3. load to part3.

repeat for all parts.

when you wish to edit a patch to better suit any of the parts, load it into part one, and switch it's track channel to one.

so, to recap, here is the method.
1. edit a sound in part1
2. record /edit midi part while in part one*
2b. (if desired) edit the patch some more for the part.
3. dump / store patch.
4. switch midi channel of track
5. load / recall patch in the runtime part.
6. load / recall runtimeeffectsPatch into part1
7. (if desired) record / edit midi part

repeat for additional parts.
and, remember that you can always refine the patch for the track by swapping it back into part1 temporarily.

i know it seems tedious, and it is, but it does work.
it is a recursive process.

let me know know if this works for you, or if you have any suggestions or additional ideas..

E3

Re: Is it possible 16 track sequencing with diffrent V-synth

19 May 2006, 14:47
Hi E3,

I was sloppy in my post, sorry about that. I agree with you that PARTS and CHANNELS are orthogonal and that it is PART 1 that can be edited. The mapping of PARTS to CHANNELs is established in the System / PART MIDI screen.

I also agree with you in principle and in practice concerning effects. It is much easier to use the V-Synth as a multitimbral synth if you minimize use of the effects. I even take this approach with reverb -- I add it outside my sound modules / synths while recording, and almost never when playing live.

I like your suggested procedure. Here's the procedure I use. It's a little different from yours but really the differences are not great. My goal was to
1) never leave the patch menu while working multitimbral mode, even when editing parts
2) not use sysex, i.e., manage everything using bank select and pc messages
3) allow myself to build the multitimbral layer incrementally while keeping 1 and 2 above

I leave every PART mapped to its associated CHANNEL (part 1 channel 1) and leave CHANNEL Rx on for all channels in SYTEM / Part MIDI.

In my first sequencer track I want to use patch 7. I will use channel 1 for this one. I create a bank select MSB, bank select MSB, and Program Change message in the first measure, first beat of the track:

track 1: V-Synth channel 1
001.01.000: Bank Select MSB 87
001.01.001: Bank Select LSB 0
001.01.001: Program Change 7

Later I'm ready to do track 2 and this time I want patch 35. I'll use channel 2 this time.

track 2: V-Synth channel 2
001.01.000: Bank Select MSB 87
001.01.001: Bank Select LSB 0
001.01.001: Program Change 35

And likewise for patch 12 on track 3:

track 3: V-Synth channel 1
001.01.000: Bank Select MSB 87
001.01.001: Bank Select LSB 0
001.01.001: Program Change 12

After listiening I don't like patch 35's settings. I dial it up on the patch menu and adjust its settings while playing into it on channel 1 from my controller. How to do this depends on your controller and sequencer; I simply dial up an empty sequencer track that is set to V-Synth channel 1 and play on the controller. When I'm satisfied, I do a PATCH Write, rewind the sequencer and play the first measure to set all the parts again.

That's it.

-illiac

Re: Is it possible 16 track sequencing with diffrent V-synth

19 May 2006, 17:07
illiac,

thanks. we are definitely on the same page.

i guess that a concern for me is that it is important for me to hear things in truest context whenever possible, and if i were to use PART 1 for a played part, then it would go away when editing the other parts.

this is why i reserve it for editing only, and the designated effect patch.

i suppose that i could also place a played part in there, if i was nearly complete or if the part was not interdependant on the others too much.

one question, do you know how to change Banks. i.e. is it possible to access patches higher than 128?

Thanks, good luck, and here's to continued helpful correspondence.

E3

Re: Is it possible 16 track sequencing with diffrent V-synth

19 May 2006, 17:39
Hi E3,

Yes you can call up any patch number on the V-Synth using the Bank Select LSB field. The patch number that is selected is given by the formula

(Bank Select LSB #) * 128 + (Program Change #)

So a Bank Select LSB of 2 with a Program Change of 20 gets you patch 276.

-illiac

Re: Is it possible 16 track sequencing with diffrent V-synth

30 Jun 2006, 15:20
I just learned something that is relevant to this thread. Perhaps it's common knowledge, but it was news to me. In the MFX -> Routing screen, if you set Output Assign to MAIN or DIRECT, you skip the MFX altogether. Moreover, this routinng works even for patches that are not on part 1. So if you have one patch (on a channel) that wants MFX but your other patches do not, you can route the other patches around the MFX in this way.

FWIW,

-illiac

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