more realistic strings please

Please don't take this comment the wrong way... as it's intended only as information... not criticism.

I come across many people who ask... "How do I make my Sax/strings/guitar/flute/bagpipe patch more realistic?" The answer lies not in the patch but in your performance. One of the more difficult techniques to master with a keyboard is emulating the playing style of another instrument. You don't have the same interaction with a keyboard to "breathe life" into a sound as you do with a guitar, violin, saxophone or whatever. There is a reason you can get a whole variety of performance controllers for keyboards (mod lever, pitch bend, volume pedal, breath controller, D-beam etc...) and that is to find the most natural way for you to inject that "life" into your sound. I'm not a huge fan of pitch bend levers, for instance, and much preferr to use aftertouch (preferably polyphonic aftertouch) to bend notes as it "feels" more natural to me.

So, too sum up, you should study how a violinist, cellist etc play their instrument... when they slide notes, when they add vibrato, how they introduce the dynamics and try to mimic that with the controllers at your disposal on your keyboard ... simply playing triad chords in a "pad style" will never be close enough to the mark. Indeed, a simple saw-pulse patch played with suitable "expression" can sound much more realistic than a faithfully sampled violin... Wendy/Walter Carlos is a prime example of this. Only then will you have a more "realistic" sound. Someone posted a song on the forum some time ago (I think it was Rordog) with the most amazing brass accompaniment... but the reason it sounded so good was the attention to the way a brass player actually plays their instrument rather than the patch that was used. I also remember attending a Yamaha demo session at a British Music Fair many years ago and being enthralled by the demonstrator playing a sax patch on a DX100 with a breath controller... the basic sound of the patch was only slightly reminiscent of a sax, but when he played it with all the expression it was undeniably a superb sax solo.

I hope that helps... and hope I didn't misunderstand your question.

)

Dave

http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Musicians fall into three categories: those with a physical block, those with a mental block and those with a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!

You pretty much said it.

Thats my experience whith the guitar. I never have liked doing rythm guitars on a keyboard. Until one day I started playing my guitar and analyzing the components of my rythm.

Then started doing some tests in a project I was making and eded up with a nice rythm gutar.

Chek it out:

http://home.coqui.net/juanchi/entupresencia.mp3

Im not very good on Orch sounds but check out the guitar.

---Roland Lover----
VS 2480, Fantom X, Vdrums Vstage, Boss GT8, JC 120 Guitar Amp, U-8 Interface, DS-90A Monitors

Energiser... yes! That is a superb example of my point.... and a really nicely constructed tune, by the way )

On a casual listen, I might well have taken the rhythm guitar for a real one and not even questioned wether or not it was a keyboard (though if you have a keen ear you can normally spot a keyboard). It does, however, show that paying attention to the playing style of the instrument you are emulating can make a huge improvement on the realism of the sound.

I'm assuming the bass line is synth based too.... if so, then again the attention to detail completes the realism... the downward slides on the end of sustained notes, similarly the vibrato on the end of long accented notes, the lighter touch on notes in the midlle of a fast run (and so avoiding the pronounced finger or pick transient) and most importantly latching the accent notes tightly to the bass drum pattern. some very fine work there mate!

)

Dave

http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Musicians fall into three categories: those with a physical block, those with a mental block and those with a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!

Sorry to say but my fantom Xa ( i have `played X7 string sounds and I feel the same.) do not give me good string sounds.
It?s incredible that Roland it?s still using old, recicled and reduced sound from old S760 Orchestral family . They sound good 10 years ago (original waveforms sounds really good but they use more memory). but be serious, they must sample new instruments. I own motif ES7 and string sounds are much better. I really love Roland gear .I have bought an SRX06 with old waveforms from Classical I/II and of course Motif factory strings sound much better. full and cleaner.
New VI like EWQLSO give us new and great sounds. check their string sounds...
I don?t think it?s a performance problem.

thx dboulden for the great&profound explanation!

energizer: I play rhythms like that often on my western guitar and don't know how you managed but very well done!

this inspires me for some more experiences ... thx guys!

hangman: Sometimes it sounds very nice with string sounds, when you play chords and the bass note is not included in the upper chord. For example c in the bass, e & g in the upper tones and so on.. Its one way to imitate classic chord structure.

----------------------------------------------------
sold two old guitars- bought the FX6 & 4 SRX boards

i must say, i'm not to keen on the internal strings either, but when you tweek and layer a little it sound good: full, clean and nice. But you've gotta work on the sound... i've heard better presets also on other (roland) synths..

i guess I have this with most of the sounds of the FX. i duthc i would say all the sound are 'net niet', which means just not goog enough.. Sometimes i think it's about quantity, not aboutthe quality of the sounds (imho).

BUT: when you edit a lot i all falls together: then you can create good sounds, still some SRX boards are unmissable i believe!

so far...

hi, dboulden said that i should consider the way in which i play the keyboard rather than the patches themselves but i still fell that the string patches dont meet the standers that i would have hoped them to, yes they can be improved by tweaking but no matter what i do i can still hear that flat, often dated sound lurking behind the layers and effects. has anyone got anything to say about the strings srx board? maybe that would solve the problem.

In case you weren't aware, you can listen to a selection of sounds from each of the SRX cards here:

http://www.rolandus.com/Multimedia/Flash/srx/srx_demo.html

just drag each card onto the image of the X8 to audition the sounds. Check out the Complete Orchestra aswell as the Strings SRX card.

)

Dave

http://www.drstudio.demon.co.uk/
"Musicians fall into three categories: those with a physical block, those with a mental block and those with a wooden block". Unfortunately, I'm in the 1st category!

hi all!

this is hard, again. I enjoy playing the fantom in most of the cases ... but have still a problem with some nature sounds. you're right when you say: play it like they did. But the strings are in my opinion VERY VERY basic as the solo cello/violin too.

but the point:
Roland knows how to make money. They make a real good product like the fantomX. But if you want a 100%-killermachine you've to buy these extra-cards for 300euros! And if you read this forum you get two answery: build up a patch for your own with much knowhow and much more time! OR buy this extra SRX-Cards for too much money!
For people who dont wanna do this there is no other possibility. Akai-Samples? NO WAY! Or just connectet with too much work...!

as I sad, I enjoy playing the fantom but this (maybe important thing) make me really angry and thinking about switching back to yamaha or korg...

I heard it and Guitar is awsome ,I have a Fantom X 7 and I have been wasting last 3 days to come up with similar guitar sound
can you please share the Setup for how did you created such a realistic Guitar Chords.

sahar_ca@yahoo.com

Regards

"Roland knows how to make money. They make a real good product like the fantomX. But if you want a 100%-killermachine you've to buy these extra-cards for 300euros! And if you read this forum you get two answery: build up a patch for your own with much knowhow and much more time! OR buy this extra SRX-Cards for too much money!"


breakbeatmonster, I agree with you.

Roland, Korg and Yamaha, all 3 believe quantity is better
than quality. All 3 of them have 100's even 1,000's of patches
in their latest workstations that the customer needs to do
extensive work on in order to make them useable.

When I buy a keyboard I want it to sound like a musical
instrument right out of the box. I do not want to spend days,
weeks and even months trying to turn some crappy patch
thats useless(to me) into something usable.

I hope someone from Roland, Korg and or Yamaha
reads this and starts to give us customers what we pay for
(An Instrument that comes from the factory with very good
realistic sounds). I would take a 100, even 50 realistic patches
over a thousand crappy patches any day !!!

If you want a realistic orchestra, get a real one! I was a little dissapointed when I bought FantomX7. There is too much R&B and Techno -stuff. But this give me more challenge as and synthplayer. I think all of you bought a Fantom because you WANT to tweak? Dont just plugNplay??

I have made music for my film with FantomX7 internal sound and the Complete Orchestra SRX06. I have layered nearly all the instrument I use. Example : violin from srx and violin from the internal FantomX sound. This give a thicker sounding violin with more nuances. And then improved the sound with effects. Also if you want more realistic sound, dont use too much "string"-sound. Play with each instrument like a real orchestra; Violin, cello, flute, french horn and so on. Just add a little string sound at the end. Motif Rack ES was also used for cello. I think the result is ok. Here are som MP3-files(with scottish pipe)

http://mengaloth.holmen.cc/media/n1.mp3
http://mengaloth.holmen.cc/media/n6.mp3
http://mengaloth.holmen.cc/media/n7.mp3

Camaro: REAL good. excelent.
Am I right. You really think about everything. Position in the "stereo-room", dynamics, layering, the echo/hall/room situation.
real good. More than one day of work? Were did you create it? PC/Mac or Fantom-Sequenzer?

I'm one of the plug'n'play people. But meanwhile I think I HAVE to learn how to tweak a sound. It dosn't matter but the expectation befor buying was different ... like 'strings should be no prob!'.

You know, sitting together with same strange guitar- and drum- guys saying "Alex ... make some stings to have some basis!" and i got "ahhhhh, wait ... the presets aren't not so good! hm, let me think. well. strings to make a good pad, puh! well..."

there is still so much to discover in my fantom! let's get busy

___________________________________
My Blog: http://www.thepack.de/fantomx/

Camaro, whatever.