Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

28 May 2020, 18:12

Hello-

Sorry for this long post...

I just purchased a new Fantom 7. I will be using the F7 for both live performance & recording. I still have much to learn about the F7... but reading manual & watching all the great tutorials are helpful. With the addition of using this great Roland Clan forum, will really help.

I use two keyboards for live performance F7 & Roland 88 Piano. I use both MIDI in/out with "Local Off" on the Roland 88 Piano. So, I am using the F7 as my controller. Not using VSTs for live performance only for recording (at least for now). I play on both keyboards. For examples, I may play organ or synth on the F7 (top) and Roland 88 Piano (bottom) and the Roland 88 Piano may be layered with F7 strings and possibly split with flute or brass on the top range. So, in order to accomplish this, the Roland 88 Piano must have "Local Off" to eliminate midi doubling. This is just an simple example, my custom scenes will be far more complex.

My immediate need is to create a custom "Scenes & Switch Groups" template for all my cover tunes for live performance. I am creating a master template scene first and thoroughly test it out before moving forward.

INTERNAL CONTROLLING: So far, creating splits, range, layers, program changes, volume, octave shifts, etc, has been very easy for controlling F7 Internal settings... and have had NO issues so far. "Octave Shift" (See Fantom 2 image) works perfect for changing internal octaves +3 /-3.

EXTERNAL CONTROLLING: For creating splits, range, layers, program changes, volume, etc, I have had NO issues so far. HOWEVER, since there is no "Octave Shift" setting (See Fantom 1 image) for external midi devices, we are referred to use Pitch "Course Tune". Unfortunately, this RPN #2 Course Tune does NOT work... to allow me to change octaves up or down to my Roland 88 Piano. I have also tried this with VSTs on my computer with no luck either. The global transpose Octave buttons on the Fantom does work and changes octaves on both F7 & Roland 88 piano... but it changes ALL sounds. I need to be able to change individual octave per sound in certain splits & layers. I have also tried changing just about every possible System Setting there is... and no luck.

Anyone else having this same issue? I wonder why Roland decided to leave off the "Octave Shift" for external midi devices? Does not make sense to me. (I will post that in the future update, request section). I'm sure this would fix this entire octave change issue for external devices.

So as of now, my "custom scene template" for live performance is dead in the water until I can resolve this.

Any ideas or solutions ? Thanks in advance!
ZONEview

Attachments

Fantom 1.jpg (691 KB, 6043 downloads) · file not available

Fantom 2.jpg (696 KB, 6043 downloads) · file not available

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

29 May 2020, 13:14

Hum. I have an RD2000 - and that does allow external zone pitch shifting (both course and octave).

One reason for my ordering a Fantom to replace my FA is because you cant do that on the FA - and I need my synth action board to do this for my 3 modules (( 1 organ and 2 synths).

I assumed, as the zone control is the same as the RD - that the pitch shifting wouldnt be the same. Ill be EXTREMELY miffed if its not possible.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

29 May 2020, 13:47

OK - had a look on the RD - as I the Fantom hasnt been delivered - and will delve into the Fantom manual.

On the RD there are two places you can alter pitch. The first is called pitch - and here internal sounds show Oct, Course and fine and work as you'd expect. External sounds also show course and fine (but no oct) however they seem to make no difference to the sounds - certainly not on my hardware units. Im guessing this is the same on the Fantom and where your seeing the problem.

The second place on the RD is in the "keyboard" tab. Here there is a "transpose" value, which is +/- semitones. This shows in both internal and external zones and works across both.

My guess is that the "keyboard" tab is changing the pitch value sent by the keypress - but the pitch value is changing the value int eh tone generation. This makes sense ax with external sources the tone generation isnt on board so it cant be adjusted - but the keyboard trigger note value can be.

Maybe see if theres something to do with keyboard or transposition rather than pitch on the Fantom?

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

29 May 2020, 14:00

OK - had a look in the parameter guide for the Fantom.

I seems like you can indeed adjust the pitch of external units using the course and fine tune HOWEVER its not in real time.

1 It sends an RPN message over midi - so your receiving unit needs to accept RPN messages.

2. It sends these message on "scene change" not real time - so try setting the amount of offset you need - save the scene with the changes. Select any other scene - then go back to the one with the pitch shift. Reading it how its written, that should then work.

PITA as it relies on the receiving unit accepting the RPN message (rather than just transmitting the adjusted pitch data over midi) , which not all do - and you cant adjust in real time so if your not sure how much to adjust you have to try a value, save it, switch scenes and check if its correct.... rinse and repeat as needed.

On the plus side - at least it should be possible for most external sound sources.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

29 May 2020, 14:49

Copied from the parameter guide:

External Coarse Tune (RPN#2) ---, -48–+48
The MIDI message (Coarse Tune) is transmitted to an external device . Adjusts the pitch in semitone steps . (RPN: 00H/02H) (±4 octaves) The specified value is transmitted when you switch scenes . If “---” is selected, no message is transmitted .

External Fine Tune (RPN#1) ---, -50–+50
The MIDI message (Fine Tune) is transmitted to an external device . Adjusts the pitch in one-cent steps . (RPN: 00H/01H) (±50 cents) The specified value is transmitted when you switch scenes . If “---” is selected, no message is transmitted .

NOT the best way. As I say the RD2000 performs the pitch change internally and just sends the altered pitch info in its midi note message.

Ive checked my Virus TI Midi implementation and it doesnt respond to NRPs (from what I can tell). My Peak does BUT only for Octave shifts not Semitones (it needs Midi CC messages, 1 per oscillator to do semitone pitch changes) - AND its looking for totally different NRP information (as Fantom sends an octave shift as +/- 12 semitones but Peak is looking for +/- 1 Octave)

Roland need to change this QUICKLY if this is the only way. Fantom is marketed as the centrepiece of a live or studio rig, controlling and integrating all equipment. BUT its relying on the individual manufacturers to have implemented the same NRP structure as it uses rather than just calculating the offset itself, and sending the correct pitch information over Midi.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

29 May 2020, 15:12

Thanks for the reply:

paulmapp8306 wrote:
OK - had a look in the parameter guide for the Fantom.
1) It sends an RPN message over midi - so your receiving unit needs to accept RPN messages.

That's exactly what I was assuming too. My Roland 88 Piano probably does not accept RPN midi messages (Registered Parameter Number). I did try your suggestion, but did not work.

This is why I have already suggested to Roland (via email) to add an "Octave Shift" (+3 /-3) setting for each EXTERNAL zone channel in the Zone View of each Scene. However, my Roland 88 Piano does accept "Octave" transpose changes, because it responses to the global octave transpose button on the F7... but also changes octaves for ALL sounds on both F7 & Roland 88 Piano. However, this is still not a solution... I need to be able to change octaves for each individual zone/split-range/layer. With that said, I think "Octave" midi changes are totally different than RPN messages which why my Roland 88 does respond to the global octave transpose buttons... Maybe you can shed some light on that.

It just does not make sense that Roland would have an "Octave Shift" to control internal sounds, but not to control external midi. Please take a look at two images in my original post and compare them... you will then see what I mean.

So, my best hope is for Roland to include the "Octave Shift" (+3 /-3) setting for external midi in the next OS update.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

29 May 2020, 17:10

The octave shift wouldnt work either - it would be the same RPN message. The RD works the same in "pitch" mode. When I send a pitch change in that way, my Peaks LFO speeds up......

I think the best way is to add a pitch offset in the offset menu (next to the filter cutoff, resonance, attack, delay and sustain offsets we already have. That offset is applied to the midi date before its sent out to the external device.

Very simple to implement, would work beautifully for any semitone offset, and with ANY external device.

Personally I dont just want octaves, I often shift things to a specific key - if I want a drone for instance Ill shift it to the lowest key which might be -2 octaves and 4 tones.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

29 May 2020, 17:19

Didnt read your whole post.

Regards Octave shift - totally depends how its implemented.

It can happen in three ways - as can semitone shifts and fine tune shifts.

1. The board itself takes the note data from the key press - applies the offset, then sends the result out as note data over midi. Thats how the global transpose button works - its just applies that offset to the key value. This is also the way adding a pitch OFFSET would work.

2. The board can transmit the raw key data over midi, but add a modifier value. This happens in real time and works in about 95% of cases. it relies on the receiving unit responding to the "modifier"

3. The board sends a "global change" when a scene/tone etc is selected then follows with the actual note data as you play. This is how its currently implemented on the Fantom.

Applying the offset on the master board is how it should ALWAYS be done these days - theres no lack of processing power to achieve it (which is why it was dont in other ways before) - and it takes any guesswork on the external units midi implementation is. It just means it works.

As I say - adding an Octave +/- for external sounds where it currently is for internal MAY work, or it MAY not (it may just add an octave RPN rather than 12 semitones per octave). It may be in real time, it may need to send it on scene change.

Adding an offset - which is by definition applied on the master board before transmission takes all the guesswork out.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

29 May 2020, 19:36

paulmapp8306 wrote:
Previous Post: I think the best way is to add a pitch offset in the offset menu (next to the filter cutoff, resonance, attack, delay and sustain offsets we already have.

1. The board itself takes the note data from the key press - applies the offset, then sends the result out as note data over midi. That's how the global transpose button works - its just applies that offset to the key value. This is also the way adding a pitch OFFSET would work.

In my Fantom 7, I have looked in External Zone Edits under OFFSET for my external zone. I see Cutoff, Resonance, Attack, Decay & Release... but I do not see "Pitch" in this OFFSET menu.

Are you suggesting for Roland to add a “pitch OFFSET" setting to the Fantom in the OFFSET menu? Is so, that’s fine... However, I would still like to also include “Octave Shift” for external zones as well... it could possibly work too.

I hope the Roland team is reading this.

- ZONE-view

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

30 May 2020, 05:57

That is exactly what Im suggesting. I dont see the need for an octave shift as well personally - just apply it as 12 semitones in the offset.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

30 May 2020, 06:57

So, currently there is no way to accomplish this? If that’s the case, I am very disappointed that my new Fantom 7 can’t do a simple, external octave +3/-3 shift. Really??? This keyboard was promoted for both live performance & recording. Until this feature is added, I can’t use my Fantom 7 for any live performances! Come on Roland!

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

30 May 2020, 10:13

The system they have does work - Ive had someone test it with their Integra and it functions fine.

The "problem" is that theres no standard to NRPs (like cc7 is always volume etc), so other manufacturers may respond to NRP5 differently to semitone shift...or not respond at all.

Thing I DONT get, is that the RD2000 is relatively new. It was the fist and only other board to use the zone system (8 zones per program, rather than 16 per scene). That DOES have a way to work. The pitch is the same, no octave for external but there is for internal. Course and fine pitch saved in the program and applied viua NRPs on program change. BUT they have another tab...Keyboard. This is where you put the upper and lower range of the zone....but can also put a pitch offset in there. That offset is applied to the note of the key pressed before transmitting the new adjusted note to the external kit.

Im HOPING there is something similar in the Fantom somewhere already - but Ive not found it yet (admittedly Im only Manual surfing). If its not there.....it needs to be.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

30 May 2020, 15:27

Well I certainly can’t find it anywhere. I hope Roland reads these posts. I know several keyboard players that also use External midi keyboards/modules for live performance that would definitely not purchase a F7 for performing if this isn’t resolve quickly. In the meantime, I am back to using my old reliable controller.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

31 May 2020, 16:51

Definitely a huge mistake on Roland's part. Adding a +/- semitone option is necessary for any kind of live master keyboard to be useful.

Re: Fantom 7 / External Octave Shift / Issue

1 Jul 2020, 08:25

Hello-

I decided to replace my old digital piano that had very limited MIDI capabilities and buy a brand new Roland FP90 (Being shipped today). The midi implementation indicates the FP90 will accept RPN#2 "Course Tune" changes... at least this will get me by until Roland adds the +3 / -3 Octave (real time) for external midi devices in future OS update. Not all midi devices accept RPN#2. And if for some reason this RPN#2 does not work, I will create custom edited patches on the FP90 that already include the octave changes that I need for each individual song. This will all be resolved once Roland adds the +3 / -3 Octave & transpose controls (real time) for external midi devices.

The other main reasons for this decision is because the FP90 has the PHA-50 action & also built-in speakers that can be turned off when needed. However, I really like the built-in speakers for practicing... to be able to just turn the piano on and play with the great PHA-50 keybed.

And, I also own a Fantom 7 that I will use as my controller for splits, layers, octave changes, program changes etc for controlling both the F7 & FP90... which is just one of the reasons I purchased the F7.

Anyone else have this same setup?