Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 13:46

Hello all. Sometimes I spend a considerable amount of time reading how people complain about the lack of an editor, and lack of Roland's online presence in a time in which everything is demanded to be online and automatic. I partially agree with that. I really don't know why Roland still does not release an editor that makes Axial's sounds usable; hose sounds are almost useless, unless you employ a lot of time organizing the whole thing (supposedly I should employ my time playing the instrument and not working in the organization of its sounds). I don't understand neither why we don't have a better Ipad editor which could be useful for editing other things such as effects, complete registrations, etc. More controversial: I don't understand why we don't have something such as a PG200 in order to have the hands on control the Jupiters are begging for (I partially solved this with an Octatrack, which literally changed the instrument and the way I approach to sound editing, even through ADSR, reverb and blender; launching something like a PG would boost JP sales even today, believe me). But the other side of these complaints is that I bought the instrument as it was by the time it was released. Again: one can think that nowadays companies address customers feedback sooner or later, and I do not like Roland's silence but I cannot complaint as not having something I was not promised to have. At best, I will consider Roland's downsides on these issues for future buyings, ending up my loyalty to the brand.
HOWEVER, I do consider I was fooled on something that indeed was promised to me: future releases of Synth Legends. By the moment I bought my JP there was no Axial website yet. Only Synth Legends "Vol 1" had been released, and I reasonably though that we were going to receive future releases. The mere "Vol. 1" reference made me (and I believe, many others), that we were going to receive at least a "Vol. 2". And this was in fact something that I considered by the moment of jumping up from an XP 60 (which I still have) to the JP. The idea was to have a frequently updated instrument, a "living" machine, in a moment of our times in which machines change and are only the box that hold "living content". In other words: additional content on NEW synth tones was promised to me and that was something I reasonably took for granted at the moment of buying the JP.
But Roland did not fulfill it.
It is also important to remember that Axial website does not compensate this, as all those "collections" are only existing tones tweked in different ways to result in registrations, but no synth tones were released. Even more: as stated before, those Registrations are useless without librarian.
If we go to the booklet launched with Synth Legends release, it says: "Synth Legends Collection Volume 1, the initial release in the series, features the sounds of seven of Roland’s most revered synthesizers, including the original JUPITER-8, the JUNO-106, D-50, and others. Future volumes will include other sought-after analog classics".
"The initial release in the series..." only stresses out that said on "Vol. 1". I was induced to think and believe further releases would come up, but nothing happened. Three years after: nothing.
This is a real shame. Even more because the JP sounds GREAT; at these prices, they would be much more attractive to anyone (not to think if something as a PG200 would come up).
Summary: I don't think this is only a matter of brands strategies (more online presence from Korg, less from Roland, etc.). It's a matter of fulfilling someone's word. I doubt I would turn to Korg because of this (I don't like how they build things, at all, despite their online presence), but I do consider going to other fields such as Elektron, DSI, etc., I would not have considered if this had not happened. In fact, I already did it. I have been playing Roland's instruments since I was 13, now I am 40. I feel missconducted (at least) by Roland, and this is not a usual feeling for me.
Are we before a legal claim? What do you guys think?
Regards,
Mahobe.

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 15:22

It seems obvious that Roland is abandoning the Jupiter 80 and all it's users.
Profits are better making small modular units and cheap workstations.
Too bad ,the JU 80 has so much promise.
Until someone comes up with the editor/librarian it's going to collect
dust in most peoples gear locker.
I use mine everyday and i still think it's the best synth action on the market.
Roland never "promised" us anything for future development (who does?)But it was
pretty clear that they treated it as a red haired step child from day one,even the big Roland
Rep's wouldn't risk ANY questions about the future of the product.
If you feel cheated by Roland then quit buying their products.(i'm sure they could care less)
I'm done with them also (until the next cool gizmo!)
Z>>>>>>>

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 15:32

Extra sounds were a bonus that were not promised when the JP-80 came to market.

Also, the 'Vol 1' was dropped a long, long time ago, confirming that there would not be a 'Vol 2' - perhaps you can blame that on the negativity towards Roland for doing JP-80 demos comparing the original gear.

The librarian topic has been done to death and isn't going to happen, but there are workarounds if you plan ahead (and have a computer).

I agree that the axial sounds are re-tweaks of onboard sounds - nothing really wrong with that; these are useful to some users.

But don't forget, the JP-80 is one of the most powerful VA/digital synths ever made and is capable of any sound you can imagine. I use mine every day and I would not be without it - and I certainly do not hold anything against Roland for having created it!

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 16:04

Thanks for the reply. I will try to make my point more clear. I do agree with the potential and with how amazing the synth is. I do use it every day fanatically. I love it. Despite the side notes on the librarian, editor, PG like interface, etc. (which I recognize in my post would be nice to have to improve its potential even more but I recognize I bought the synth as it was), I don't agree with the synth legends issue.
Despite when it was released there was no synth legends, by the moment I bought the synth, it had been already launched. And it clearly said "vol. 1". And if you see the transcription I included in my post, the booklet said that it was the first of a series. I bought it, in part, because of that. Three years later, there is no vol. 2. Because of this, I consider, in part, I was misguided. I also understand and share that by this time there is low expectation they could continue to improve the synth, but it has nothing to be with what they should do.
They said that Vol. 1 was the first of other releases in different ways. So they DID promise further versions.
Cello, I always read your posts and I like your optimistic and positive feelings towards Roland, but it doesn't mean we don't have to complain when things do not go the right way.
Again: this is not hype, nor editor/librarian request. The synth sounds amazing. But there were commitments from them by the time me and many others bought the synth, and they were not fufilled.

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 18:05

Mahobe wrote:
Hello all. Sometimes I spend a considerable amount of time reading how people complain about the lack of an editor, and lack of Roland's online presence in a time in which everything is demanded to be online and automatic. I partially agree with that. I really don't know why Roland still does not release an editor that makes Axial's sounds usable; hose sounds are almost useless, unless you employ a lot of time organizing the whole thing (supposedly I should employ my time playing the instrument and not working in the organization of its sounds). I don't understand neither why we don't have a better Ipad editor which could be useful for editing other things such as effects, complete registrations, etc. More controversial: I don't understand why we don't have something such as a PG200 in order to have the hands on control the Jupiters are begging for (I partially solved this with an Octatrack, which literally changed the instrument and the way I approach to sound editing, even through ADSR, reverb and blender; launching something like a PG would boost JP sales even today, believe me). But the other side of these complaints is that I bought the instrument as it was by the time it was released. Again: one can think that nowadays companies address customers feedback sooner or later, and I do not like Roland's silence but I cannot complaint as not having something I was not promised to have. At best, I will consider Roland's downsides on these issues for future buyings, ending up my loyalty to the brand.
HOWEVER, I do consider I was fooled on something that indeed was promised to me: future releases of Synth Legends. By the moment I bought my JP there was no Axial website yet. Only Synth Legends "Vol 1" had been released, and I reasonably though that we were going to receive future releases. The mere "Vol. 1" reference made me (and I believe, many others), that we were going to receive at least a "Vol. 2". And this was in fact something that I considered by the moment of jumping up from an XP 60 (which I still have) to the JP. The idea was to have a frequently updated instrument, a "living" machine, in a moment of our times in which machines change and are only the box that hold "living content". In other words: additional content on NEW synth tones was promised to me and that was something I reasonably took for granted at the moment of buying the JP.
But Roland did not fulfill it.
It is also important to remember that Axial website does not compensate this, as all those "collections" are only existing tones tweked in different ways to result in registrations, but no synth tones were released. Even more: as stated before, those Registrations are useless without librarian.
If we go to the booklet launched with Synth Legends release, it says: "Synth Legends Collection Volume 1, the initial release in the series, features the sounds of seven of Roland’s most revered synthesizers, including the original JUPITER-8, the JUNO-106, D-50, and others. Future volumes will include other sought-after analog classics".
"The initial release in the series..." only stresses out that said on "Vol. 1". I was induced to think and believe further releases would come up, but nothing happened. Three years after: nothing.
This is a real shame. Even more because the JP sounds GREAT; at these prices, they would be much more attractive to anyone (not to think if something as a PG200 would come up).
Summary: I don't think this is only a matter of brands strategies (more online presence from Korg, less from Roland, etc.). It's a matter of fulfilling someone's word. I doubt I would turn to Korg because of this (I don't like how they build things, at all, despite their online presence), but I do consider going to other fields such as Elektron, DSI, etc., I would not have considered if this had not happened. In fact, I already did it. I have been playing Roland's instruments since I was 13, now I am 40. I feel missconducted (at least) by Roland, and this is not a usual feeling for me.
Are we before a legal claim? What do you guys think?
Regards,
Mahobe.

Well, we are entitled to our opinion. LOL

An editor would have been great but it did not happen.

As far as the Synth Collection Vol. 1 goes that was really not that great. I listened to those sounds and trust me some of those were real stinkers.
A synths legend volume 2? Please Roland No!
Seriously, Why not program your own sounds and make your own synth Legends? Could be fun too.

I am experimenting with Prophet 5 sounds currently. Now I do not have a real prophet 5 but only the Prophet-5V by Arturia as a reference. I also use a Jupiter-8V as a reference. I have gotten some great results out of the Jupiter-80 and 50 as far as emulations go.

When the Jupiter-80 first came out I was very disappointed because I'll admit I wanted a Jupiter-8 remake. It is not a JP-8 remake but it is a lot more versatile than a Jupiter-8 as a sound design and writing tool.

Even without a PG-200 style editor the Jupiter-80 is so simple to navigate. A PG-200 editor (I have one on my JX-3p) was made for a simple synth. The Jupiter-80 is a lot more complex with different levels (or a hierarchy) to its sound structure and a PG-200 type editor would not be enough. Besides the iPad offers the JP-Editor which demonstrates that.

Roland Fraud and a legal claim against them over Synth Legends Vol 2...good luck with that. LOL

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 19:10

Remember the Varios? And ARX? lol

In a way I think some of these things are to wade a little way out into the water to see if the market looks inviting. Sure they have a market research team but there's no telling what people are really going to buy by the time production is complete.

If I'm being blunt, what happened when the Jupiters and Integra came out - a lot of b!tching.

"Not analog, not a workstation, PCM? SuperWHAT? Wait it's not analog? Not enough controls! Too expensive! This isn't a workstation like the Kronos. "

Then the axial came out and it was the same comments "Makes me want to buy a used Jupiter 8. Sounds terrible. Why don't they fire Scott Tibbs (yeah the comments actually said that)"

So what do they do? They repackage the synth into a workstation with different keyboard options and make it a crossover between the Integra and Jupiter. They keep it low cost and release it as soon as they can. Then they focus on creating a new synth line with analog oscillators with an alternative low cost version, also funding the creation of more accurate representations of their old synths and keeping the price down there as well.

As far as I can tell their current goal is to find a place where they fit in happily with profits before taking anymore big risks. The reason boutique are a limited run is probably because they don't want to waste a ton of money if it ends up not being so well received.

Obviously Axial had enough downloads for them to keep it going for the new synths. I bet the number of axial sets released is directly related to how well the supported board sells.

Now, I am still upset that they dropped the VS 700 drivers from windows 10, but since the cakewalk community has created a solid workaround I'm over it already. It seems with Roland, it very much is a WYSIWYG product line. It makes sense from a financial point, but there are so few electronics companies that operate like this anymore that it stands out when it happens.

There's another Japanese company that operates similarly - Nintendo. I can't say for sure that the reason is the same for Roland, but I have a feeling it is. Here is an article that explains Nintendo's situation

http://kotaku.com/one-reason-nintendo-has-such-a-hard-time-with-new-ideas-1680988301

For those not into video games, Nintendo is regularly criticized by fans for not listening, killing their products after a short life, producing games that nobody really wants anymore, and generally making what gamers consider frustrating decisions. If you think the negative comments towards the Jupiter were intense, you haven't seen Nintendo fans haha. As a gamer and musician, I see a lot of similarities between these two companies. Roland's headquarters isn't very far from theirs either.

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 19:42

Macksa, I agree with your comments. It is a nice paralelism that one with Nintendo. However, reading Synthron's comment, I believe that I brought many issues up and it was not my intention (maybe this was because I never write here!). Because, though I agree with you, there are others that think that we bought what we bought, and there was no compromise from Roland to launch an editor, librarian, etc. This is true. However, it is also true that a lot of us did not know about the very complex way in which JPs store sounds, and how complex was going to be to take advantage of one modified tone in another live set, etc (just to give an example).
But my mine point is not related to the expectation that one might have on the feedback of a company that sold us something. My main point is that something that was announced as "the initial release in the series", did not have a second part. If something is "initial", by definition needs to have a second part. Even more if that initial thing is called "Vol. 1".
I don't agree with Synthron that Synth Legends was bad. There were a lot of sounds that I liked. But anyhow, it is not relevant. The subjective appreciation of those sounds has nothing to be with the objective fact that the second part of Synth Legends, never came up. No Vol. 2. No second part of that initial series.
Let's suppose a friend of mine had the JP with SL uploaded, and I liked it so much that I bought it only because of that, and for the fact that it was "the initial relase" of a series. And let's suppose that Series (initial and future releases) were the only reason for which I bought it. Why shouldn't I be entitled to claim , even legally, for something that was stated in written?
I do not see how programming relates to this, neither. Of course I program some sounds. And many of them over those Synth Legends Vol. 1 inspiration. We are not talking about the programming capabilities of the synth , which are clear, we are talking about something that was promised and not delivered.
By the way, and again clarifying it is not my main point: I don't agree the PG200 was meant because of the JX3P simplicity, but because of it lack of hands on controls, which JP also suffers. As mentioned before: just connect an Octatrack (midi mode), or name any other controller, and only having "simple" ADSR knobs, you have another synth in terms of live control, impossible to reach through navigation menus. Again, not my main point, which only is that we were fooled in waiting for something that has never been delivered.

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 20:23

Mahobe wrote:
I don't agree with Synthron that Synth Legends was bad. There were a lot of sounds that I liked. But anyhow, it is not relevant. The subjective appreciation of those sounds has nothing to be with the objective fact that the second part of Synth Legends, never came up. No Vol. 2. No second part of that initial series.

Why don't you contact Roland about your disappointment with the lack of further Synth Legends volumes and see what Roland says?

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 21:30

Well, if you bring up a potentially controversial topic here on the clan you are guaranteed that regular posters are going to have a good deep discussion about it, one of the things to love about this place! I don't think you stepped on any toes so don't worry about that. Synthtron has 2 JP 80's I think (is that right?) and a Roland collection that would melt most fan's minds, so he's got plenty of room for opinion on this subject! (hope I'm being accurate Synthtron!)

Looking at Axial again, it does seem they made quite a few additions since I last checked, have you seen all of these new sounds?

http://axial.roland.com/category/jupiter-80/

It's pretty impressive to me anyways. The ones called "Timeless Synths" and "Analog Synth Collection" seem to me"Synth Legends VOL 2" but they have to disguise the names of everything to avoid copyright problems. Out of my own curiosity, did Roland not cover in the original Synth Legends that you're wanting to see? The JX series is the only thing I can think of that didn't get one and would be worth a sound set. Roland is fantastic but they don't have THAT many vintage synths under their belt that are worth emulating :) JP-8000 is a good synth, but I think we can agree that it's not different enough to warrant a whole synth legends pack considering it was basically the 90's version of what the JP 80 is today. I remember a lot of the presets are trying to emulate the SH 101, TB 303, and Jupiter 8. Plus they have the trancey sounds in the Dancefloor pack.

I'd say they followed through, they simply changed the name from "synth legends" to "refills" for marketing effect. In fact, I'd argue they provided even more than a Vol 2, they provided 11 Volumes!

Off topic -

And the Nintendo - Roland comparison really is funny to think about if anyone else is into games. Zelda is Nintendo's Jupiter 8 and everyone keeps asking for a proper successor to the N64 games but they won't do it like we want! It's gotta have trains or motion controls or something ridiculous.

I am spending way to much time on rolandclan on my day off right now XD

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

5 Oct 2015, 21:34

Synthtron wrote:
Why don't you contact Roland about your disappointment with the lack of further Synth Legends volumes and see what Roland says?

"Thank you for your purchase. We at Roland are very happy that a customer enjoyed our Synth Legends Volume 1. While we are not aware of any future plans for a Volume 2, be sure to keep an eye on Roland's axial page for future updates. There you will find many other Jupiter 80 Refills that may have what you are looking for."

Something along those lines, I'll save you the time. Seriously though I'm getting jealous of some of those refills now that i'm listening to the soundcloud...

Speaking of which, it's impressive that they made all of these demos of the sound! I think that shows some good intentions towards the customers don't you?

Re: Synth Legends new releases? Fraud?

8 Oct 2015, 01:00

Roland tried to do too much with their flagship Jupiter-80. It was presented as both a modern, SuperNATURAL powerhouse as well as a vintage emulator of their greatest hits. That broad usability is primarily why I bought it, as my first (and then only) synthesizer. I thought I would get all I needed in one machine, and Synth Legends Vol 1 was a large part of that.

After having played the synth over some time, I realized that the vintage emulation was the weakest part of the sound. They got some of the basic tones right (especially the digital D-50), but nearly all sounds lacked the richness and fullness of the originals, especially the analogs. After Vol 1 I think Roland realized that this pursuit was a mistake. The Jupiter-80 had neither the feel nor the programming flexibility to properly emulate vintage sounds.

In my opinion they were right to abandon Vol 2. The SuperNATURAL synth engine has a great sound of its own, and future attempts should focus on that, as the Axial sounds do. Vintage sounds are better covered by other sources, including Roland's more recent efforts. However, the vintage capabilities of the Jupiter-80 do live on as great foundations in many of the available sound sets. As such, the effort wasn't wasted. It is there as a bonus if you want it.