J80 Price - Ouch!

Mystic38 wrote:

the JP80 is $700 cheaper than the nord stage 2..its most direct competitor yet offers better range of instruments...so its not overpriced IMO... if it beats NS2 in organ, piano, EP and synth sounds thne its a no brainer at the price.

IMHO, the most direct competitor featerwise would be a Yamaha 70SX and not a Nord Stage.

Hi Mystic,

I have a PC3 and I love it. The learning curve is insane at first but, apart from behavior modelling as the JP80 purportedly has, the PC3 is incredibly powerful. The Kurzweil community has an Artemiy equivalent in Brian Cowell. He runs a forum devoted to mastering V.A.S.T. and Sonikmatter actually has active Kurzweil reps - specifically Dave Weiser - who post regularly. With OS 2.02 you can now manipulate samples at what Kurzweil calls the keymap level.

I have noticed that there is no in between about how most people feel about Kurzweils. They either loathe them or love them. What is trickier is that Kurzweil dealers are hard to find. In Ohio for instance there is just one but fortunately it is in the same city where I live. I am adding a Kronos to my largely Roland and one Kurzweil rig and I am confident I will be set in terms of what I need musically.

I still will keep my Fantom X8 and XV-88 and my other Roland gear as I do not believe in obsolescence. Besides, I do have a love for Roland sound. But, I do admit that the J80 has some really cool features but for ME the price for it is just unwarranted. But I would also add that if Roland end user support was better I would have given some thought to a J80. I have been watching the agonizing things with the Fantom G since its release. At the time I had JUST bought my Fanton X and then the G came along. Ironically, it was this forum that made me happy I did NOT trade up for the G. The G is an excellent instrument from a company that seems to have lost its way. I just hope for those that are buying a J80 that they will not be left begging for updates as G owners doing now.

If you are thinking of a PC3, PLEASE make sure you do NOT get one of the LE series. They are NOT programmable. You might want to check out Sonikmatter and do a Google on Mastering V.A.S.T. and get some familiarity with the PC3 series before making the plunge. The free editor DOES make this beast a bit easier to program, the effects are outstanding and the synth engine is terrifyingly deep. If you like tweaking and building sounds that are extremely complex, the PC3 is a GREAT instrument.

Last bit: Yes I am buying a KRONOS but Korg is making a big deal about patch remain; Roland did the same with the G. But humble Kurzweils have been doing this since the K2000! I really think that Korg should concentrate on what is best about the KRONOS and that is its workflow - which is another thing that had initially attracted me to possibly buying a J80. The PC3 workflow sucks. As much as I love it, I will readily admit that the term byzantine is being kind ;) It seems that Kronos can in certain areas equal the PC3 in terms of sound creation and it certainly smokes it terms of workflow. Still, I will never give the PC3 up. It has that "sound" that I have not found anywhere else.

Whatever you decide, I hope you will be happy and make great music!!

Best,
Vlad

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If I was looking to get my 1st roland synth and wanted something that would give performance sound and value for money..
I would`nt get the Jp80 I would get the G.
I think the jp80 is a conceptual board for something else and way too over priced.
for the professional musician with more money than sense your probably better getting a kronos.

so where does this leave the jp80??

so where does this leave the jp80??

Between a rock and a hard place perhaps? lol

That said, I think there will be a market for the JP-80 because the sound is so good on it. Sound-wise it will be comparable to the Korg Kronos or possibly even better sounding if the demos are any indication. But with the Kronos you can "add" sounds through expansion whereas with the Jupiter-80 what you see (hear) is what you get (in essence what you're going to be stuck with until you either sell it or trade it in for something that does have expansion - like a Kronos, etc. ;) Or a Fantom G. :) The JP-80 also doesn't have "nine"... count 'em... NINE sound engines either. Plus apparently there are going to be a lot of "gaps" in the acoustical department as well. Organs?? Clavs?? Exactly how extensive are the acoustic instruments going to be on the Jupiter-80? Time will tell I suppose.

Where I think Roland will garner a lot of its JP-80 sales is through churches in the United States and elsewhere that can afford this nice instrument that has great 'out of the box' sounds that are in many cases breathtakingly superb. Some of the orchestral sounds are amazing and also the acoustic grand(s) appear to be top notch as well. Nothing better than having an extremely realistic sounding keyboard to provide lead and/or background sounds in a contemplative setting which can evoke strong emotions and/or stir the soul with. After the church administrative leaders gets over the initial sticker shock from its relatively high price that is. ;)

The trouble I have is trying to justify the price vs. performance i.e. in what you actually get for your money. Yes, you get many superb sounds in several sound categories and a lot less chance of running out of polyphony during comprehensive arrangements. Yes, you also get a nice display that has a touch screen and what seems to be a better Arpeggiator functionality. But not having a Sampler or a Sequencer or any expansion capability whatsoever really takes the wind out of the sails and certainly limits the market viability for the JP-80 in my humble opinion. At least to those who desire a true workstation functionality in the keyboards they buy. Which is probably the majority of serious keyboardists out there too I might add. ;) The lack of true workstation capability will obviously hinder its value to many within the keyboard community and its overall sales will be affected negatively because of it too no doubt. Too bad... because it really does have a lot of potential but for its lack of Sampler, Sequencer and having NO expansion capability whatsoever. Strike THREE.. your OUT! :D lol

On the other hand there is still a very huge buzz surrounding the Kronos whereas it seems the JP-80 buzz has been diminishing quite a bit lately. Obviously a big reason for the "die down" effect, in my opinion, is the fact that Roland and company appear to be a timid lot who apparently shriek in horror at the thought of having to engage their customers on a consistently interactive basis. ;) I bet you Korg is pretty happy about Roland's basically hands-off approach though huh? Laughing all the way to the bank no doubt.

My ancient Japanese proverb: "If you don't stoke the fire the embers will die down and you will lose heat. If you don't keep adding wood to the fire the fire will eventually go out and the buzz that surrounded the heat and was stirred by the embers will slowly turn cold, and indifferent, because you - Roland - let the fire go out and/or haven't stoked the embers." A wise wise saying I might add too. ;) lol At least Korg understands the principle. On the other hand, Roland customers seem to be left holding the bag... out in the cold... in the middle of winter... on top of Mt. Fuji. :O

The lack of sequencer is not a priority any longer.. the computer can take care of that..
the closed architecture however is what makes this a soon to be expensive paperweight.
As far as poly goes.. its architecture kinda takes away the advantage because its primary function is to layer..
also the poly system is all wrong so you will still run out of notes.

Its a shame they let the G development die it has so much more future potential than the JP80 will ever get.
I cant see roland ever producing a better workstation since they did not go far enough with the G they surely wont go any better later on.

I personally put a high priority on an on-board Sequencer but you're right in that computer software can accomplish the same thing and more comprehensively in fact. If you have access to a computer that is. ;) Being able to use an on-board Sequencer when a computer may not be handy (in a pinch) in other words, is really convenient. If a keyboard doesn't have an on-board Sequencer and a computer isn't handy and you need to make a quick sequence for whatever reason and the keyboard doesn't have a Sequencer you're up a creek without a paddle so to speak. But yeah, a computer software DAW like Sonar, etc. really helps... when you have access to a computer. :)

I hear ya' on the closed architecture too Quinnx. What was Roland thinking? Only they know because obviously they don't let us in on any of their decisions. Chirp chirp. :D On the other hand, Yamaha actually asks for user input over at Motifator.com and so does Korg too from what I understand. Not Roland obviously though. ;) For whatever reason they can't seem to stand the heat in the kitchen. Probably because they can't cook very good right? :D And the JP-80 probably is evidence of that fact since Roland is probably not going to sell as many of them as they had hoped to. And they only have themselves to blame if, or when, the JP-80 actually tanks 'at the box office'. We'll find out soon enough I guess. I know I won't buy one because of its limitations. But you know what? I would have bought one in a heart beat if they presented it as a workstation with all the various workstation goodies inside. Even if they charged a few hundred more bucks for it. In fact, if the JP-80 was actually a bona fide workstation with a Sequencer, Sampler, Expansion capability etc., I believe Roland would have had a HUGE HIT on their hands and they would have sold "boat loads" of them no doubt. Maybe they're afraid of success or something? ;) lol

I wanted to also mention that I was over at the Korg forums recently and realized that the Kronos may not be the hyped-up monster keyboard everyone was initially thinking it was. Apparently the build quality may not be all that great and the actual "fonts" are itty-bitty and there's NO way to increase their size. One guy said he couldn't really see the text on the screen at all it was so bad. If you're on stage performing live and you can't navigate your way around the various screen menus because you can't see the print on the screen it could be disastrous needless to say. Also, muting various notes apparently eats up huge amounts of polyphony and even though there is a workaround using Karma the workaround is convoluted and confusing to figure out. And a hassle too because obviously the simplest solution would have been for Korg to provide a 'factory' remedy before the Kronos even shipped. And no telling if there will ever be an eventual software update down the road to "fix" that anomaly either. Don't hold your breath either because there might not be a way to fix it at all (it could be hardware related) so Kronos owners could potentially be stuck with that crippling bug for the life of the keyboard. Or forced into using that cumbersome convoluted workaround using Karma. That "bug" alone would make me seriously re-consider the Kronos as a viable keyboard option. Roland is probably really glad about that one though. ;) The more problems the Kronos has the better the alternatives look e.g. Roland, Kurzweil and Yamaha.

PS: I'm still expecting Roland to come out with a competent "workstation" built around the JP-80 concept e.g. adaptive behavior modelling, 256 note polyphony, etc. But also with a Sequencer, Sampler and Expansion opportunities included. Maybe as soon as Winter NAMM '12 or possibly Musikmesse '12. What a glorious day that will be huh? :) All things considered that is. ;) If it's not "excellent" in every way people will probably be a little hesitant to fork over their hard earned cash for a sub-par product. Which is very understandable I might add. And people are probably starting to wonder whether the Kronos is actually such a good deal after all too? :O Build quality is extremely important but it looks like Korg may have cut corners on the Kronos as a consequence of stuffing all those high tech features inside at such a reasonable cost and still be able to make a profit. Time will tell. One person had just unpacked his Kronos and he noticed the slider buttons were all loose which is not a good sign. If they are already loose from the factory they will probably eventually come off at some point and be lost. Again, not a good sign.

If you had 8 Supernatural layers sounding at the same time your poly would be 32. That would be a massive sound...what more do you need? Some keyboards would need 4+ sample layers to do the same thing Roland has with one layer. Its funny to read folks complaining about lack of expansion slots or the assumed end of the Fantom G. Been nothing but complaining about that stuff for YEARS. Don't think Roland didnt hear the usergroup? "The workstation is dead" Remember that? "We want V Pianos" Remember that? It would have been nice if JP80 included a full featured sampler with SSD drive and more knobs/sliders on the panel but it doesn't. Turns out the competition has these things but the sequencer is half baked, only 250 ish meg of sample memory, small screen fonts with a cheap control surface and internal fan. For my needs JP80 will integrate into my studio perfectly. I've already got some great modules and soft synths. I pre ordered a Kronos 88 at launch (been waiting 6 months now) but after a couple hands on sessions I'm cancelling this week for a new Jupiter.

Roland please issue more info on the Jupiter 80!

Devnor,
are you able to write anything concerning the J80 without striking the Kronos where it needs and where it doesn't?
It gets really boring and your comments are really silly.
You complain about a half baked sequencer and 250 Mb or Ram (where did you get that from?), and now you are preordering a second board without trying it first, which doesn't have a sequencer and sample ram at all. So much about the value of your arguments.

1. JP80 is constantly compared to Kronos.
2. Free sample RAM is per Dan at the Korg forums.
3. I said "it would be nice" if JP80 had sampler. I never said I needed or wanted a sequencer.
4. Hey it's your choice whether or not to read my comments which seem to strike a nerve. It's just a synth - some people will find a use for the board there are plenty others like you whom seem content hating on a japenese synthesizer manufacturer. You seem to go out of your way to spout anti-Roland agenda here & elsewhere; whether right or wrong. You can either debate my points or get your panties in a wad.

I guess it just seems weird.. You can hardly complain about a board having limited sample ram and limited sequencer if you then consider a board that has zero sample ram and zero sequencer... If it is clearly not a criteria for you then why complain?..:d

Unlike you see no comparisons between the Kronos and the jp80 other than that they are new and expensive.. They are designed for two totally different markets..

Mystic38 wrote:

I guess it just seems weird.. You can hardly complain about a board having limited sample ram and limited sequencer if you then consider a board that has zero sample ram and zero sequencer... If it is clearly not a criteria for you then why complain?..:d

That exactly was my point and I considered it unnecessary to repeat it because it's so obvious.
Accusing me for anti-Roland agenda is simply a stupid objection. Roland has done a lot of things wrong in recent times when it comes to how they design their flagship products and how they communicate with their customers. Complaining about it is certainly not an anti-Roland agenda.