Just too many problems...

I cannot imagine myself using anything that I don't like. That would be such a stupid thing to do. Over the last few years I bought a few pieces of equipment which I then returned or sold, and I never had an idea of going to a forum and hoping the manufacturer will hear my claims and fix them. I could immediately realize what this device is about and whether it fits me or not.

Stop bloody arguing arty... lol... Gasoline, Fire, Mumble ....

mojkarma

Instead of debating this, let me ask a general question: is it really impossible to complain about something here without risking that somebody jumps in or over and try to prove me or anybody else wrong.

Actually, it's perfectly cool to be vocal about the Fantom-G's shortcomings here. But there are some rules (some written, some unwritten). Outright calling out of Roland employees (either specific employees or as a whole) is frowned upon. Repeating the exact same complaints ad nauseum is considered trolling. You've actually been very reasonable. Personally, I'd say this is healthy debate, and welcome to the forum!

But remember—you came into a FANTOM-G thread comparing the M3—of course you're gonna get some heat!

Why can't we discuss about missing or flawed features without the need to point out that the others have several more?

You absolutely CAN discuss things you find missing or flawed. But since this thread's morphed (devolved?) into a comparison of the Fantom-G to the other big two workstations, it's only fair to allow the rest of us to keep perspective.

And that perspective is: If you mention any shortcomings of the Fantom-G (FX routing = moderate dent in the Ferrari) in relation to the M3, it's only fair that we point out the elephant in the room (M3's 16 MIDI tracks = Ford Focus, no audio tracks = ugly-ass wife).

Yes, point taken. The FG is also limited to 16 tracks inside itself.

Huh? The Fantom-G is limited to 128 tracks inside itself. I've made songs with over 100 MIDI tracks using only the internal sounds (with no ARX boards). It's important to understand the difference between parts, channels, and tracks. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was a brainfart.

Re: external and internal channels

Yes, another good point if one has the need to create a live setup consisting of let's say 30 different sounds at the same time.

Or if you wanted to instantly build Live Sets spanning two devices in the middle of a gig...

...Or if you wanted to make a song... you know, the whole reason workstations exist in the first place? I can't possibly comprehend hooking up a Virus Ti and having to squeeze 32 parts into 16 tracks. The kicks, snares, hihats, toms, and crashes on the same tracks? Volume, pan, filter, and other automation lanes on the same track as note data? That stuff's CRIPPLING when you're trying to, you know, actually make music that doesn't sound like a cheeseball demo.

Re: audio tracks

I wont fall into that trap and discuss with you the subtle differences between the FG sequencer and sonar/cubase/logic. With respect to anybody who uses the internal sequencer, these days where we have computers, working with any workstation sequencer is like writing a book by hand instead of using some kind of word processor. Scratchpad Yes, serious tool for making a song anywhere near radio ready? Absolutely NO.

Okay, so this is exactly what I'm talking about. The Fantom-G adds some incredibly powerful features (like a phrase-based, 128-track sequencer with 24 audio tracks) and suddenly it's no longer appropriate to compare it to an M3 or Motif—we have to compare it to Logic or Cubase? Nice moving of the goal posts there. Let me go over to Irish Acts and compare the M3's sampler to Kontakt. Awesome.

The point is that the Fantom-G goes so much farther toward the Logic/Cubase camp than the M3 and Motif XS could ever dream to, and because your personal studio workflow doesn't utilize the internal sequencer or audio tracks, the M3 is empirically a better workstation? Hogwash. The M3's 16 MIDI tracks and lack of linear audio make it a SYNTH. One might argue it doesn't even deserve the title of "workstation."

Yeah, keep laughing and trying to be funny. But don't make close minded comparisons without knowing where it leads to.

No, the Fantom-G is not perfect—no one said it was. Yes, the M3 and XS have better implementation of several features—you'll get no argument from me.

But c'mon. Back in the 90's, the M3 and Motif XS workstation features would've been awesome. But in 2010, they suck. They really do. You simply cannot make full, finished productions on them—at least not without an insane amount of work. You have to hook them up to Logic, Cubase, or ProTools, and at that point, why own a workstation at all? Why not just buy a controller and a few extra softsynths?



For the record, I actually like the M3 and Motif XS. I just wouldn't ever try to make songs on them.

``Just my impression, but this doesn't sound like whining. The thing about bugs is a lot of them can be attributed to user error and, as is often the case here, zealous expectation.

6 weeks really isn't that long of time with the Fantom-G. It may not be a computer DAW with a billion and one shortcuts, but there is enough functionality to keep you busy mastering it for a while. ``

Right!
in the beginning after i bought the Fantom i had various problems and was every time convinced that the instrument had some bugs or errors...and every time it turned out i had myself caused the problems or just misunderstood something....

LOL…you guys!

It was not my intention to write that post at all

You do remember that you responded to my first post here right? Then I responded to your response to my post. The next move was yours…But I never said to name (what you feel are) the G’s design flaws.

I said,

name the G’s design flaws compared to it’s competitors

You did all rest of that stuff for your own reasons….remember?

I'm not writing this to offend you or anyone, I simply have a hope, that somebody from Roland would read this and just think for a minute if they have really implemented all those features in the best or fastest possible way.

And that is fine... I don’t have a problem with that at all. However, this is not the place for your last post. As Dan said, they check the wish list threads. But I thought you were talking to me? That’s how this started, and then you just ignored me and did not even try to counter my arguments. I really don’t care about all of this stuff and as I said before, I am a very confident and happy musician. You could have just posted what you did without commenting on my post. I had no intentions of posting again after my first post here, I just wanted to make sure that our visitors were not confused because it will help you guys get what you want sooner.

This was the first sentence of my first post…

This is just so we don’t confuse anyone and not directed at you SynthBaby, even though I did quote you, my comments are more logical than personal

If anything, SynthBaby is the only one who should feel a need to defend himself, but like I said, I just used his quotes as a way of reassuring our visitors.

You started talking to me and you were rude….

Zephyer, its not my intention to argue with you about your opinions, I respect them, but simply have to jump in whenever somebody makes statements about how the competition is weak and similar claims which have absolutely no connection to reality and simply represent fan boyish talk.

What did you expect in return? I answered you and still you fail to disprove my arguments.

So, just to grab one point, your last sentence, you somehow know that the competition is weak, you simply know it for some secret reasons and make a statement about it,

That’s more like it, an attempt to counter my argument’s

But lets not get into semantic here. I just used weak as a word to suggest that the G is technically superior to it’s rivals. For example, the G has more audio and midi tracks then the motif, that is a fact. But I am not saying that the G is the best workstation for anyone in anyway at all. I have personal opinions about all the workstations and I have something positive to say about each of them. But logic is logic and fact is fact. And I overwhelmingly talk Roland here because this is a Roland forum.

If any body drives in one direction, and I drive in the opposite, most probably I'm driving in the wrong direction.

Now, if you want, you can prove me to be wrong, otherwise...

A Belief can make the impossible possible and it is always true to the owner of that belief. A Belief can never be untrue. And it can change on command.....Sounds Godlike doesn't it?

Here are a few examples-

1.I Believe fairies exist=True.

2.I do not believe fairies exist in any way shape or form=True.

3.I Believe fairies exist and I also believe they do not exist in any way shape or form =True.

All of these examples are true to the believer and no-one can prove he does not believe it=Fact.

However, reality and the laws of the universe dictate that the last one (3) will always be untrue.

In other words, we are both going the right direction unless a sign (a fact) says otherwise. So if I say the G has more MIDI tracks then the motif and have facts to prove it and you disagree, then you are indeed going in the wrong direction.

And there you go I’m just showing off here mojkarma…I understand where you are coming from, like I said, I am doing my best to help you guys but I understand that you guys feel that your way is the best way to help yourselves, and I respect that. So no hard feelings.

But a word of advice...

Whatever you do, delete your response to TAW post. The man is a legend at debating and I have never seen his equal, trust me, he was being nice. I’m not even sure if I can win a debate against him. But man would it be fun to try…maybe one day on a positive topic. But his family owns a music store…he knows more about gear then anyone hear I think. And he types like a demon, a beast…crazy speed and precision with wit to mach. I’m nice ,but he believes mercy is for the weak! It’s a real treat for me to see him work but you don’t want to be his next victim.. And you are off on quite a few facts……Run!!! And never debate against him again...hurry before it’s to late! )

Crap!…I didn’t make it in time…DO NOT ENGAGE HIM!...RUN!!

Artemiy:

I cannot imagine myself using anything that I don't like.

Yep.

It's tough to gauge the sentiment of some here. Maybe they're trying to say "You know, I really like the Fantom-G as a whole, but it'd be nice if a few of the features were a bit more M3-like, because I prefer the way Korg approaches a couple things."

Unfortunately, it comes across as "Durr! I bought a Fantom-G but the M3 is better!" Our knee-jerk reaction is "Well, duh. Why'd you buy a Fantom-G then?"

For example, a lot of SoCal Logic users have been requesting ProTools-like features for years. It's not that we prefer ProTools empirically; just that PT does a few things better.

The trick, however, is to not go over to the Logic Pro Help forums and yell "Logic sucks! ProTools does this better and this better and this better!" You know, because that doesn't work.

Instead, we stopped bitching altogether and organized a Logic Power Users group. Apple waited for the noise to die down, then (and only then) approached us directly, asked for input, and we gave it—politely, and succinctly.

The majority of our requests made it into Logic 9. Feature requests from the haters were promptly ignored.

Zephyer:

Whatever you do, delete your response to TAW post. The man is a legend at debating and I have never seen his equal, trust me, he was being nice. I’m not even sure if I can win a debate against him. But man would it be fun to try…maybe one day on a positive topic. But his family owns a music store…he knows more about gear then anyone hear I think. And he types like demon, a beast…crazy speed and precision with wit to mach. I’m nice ,but he believes mercy his for the weak! It’s a real treat for me to see him work but you don’t want to be his next victim.. And you are off on quite a few facts……Run!!! And never debate against him again...hurry before it’s to late!

Awww... I'm getting all verklempt (sniff!)...



Ha! No, my family doesn't own a music store, but I worked at one for six years back in the day. I am hired by various MI companies on a consultant basis (as are lots of weekend warriors in SoCal), and actually had a very short gig with Roland five years ago. (STRING HIM UP!!!) Unfortunately, most of the people I dealt with aren't there any longer, and I never had the pleasure of working with Dan Krisher. He and I have spoken on a couple of occasions (NAMM shows mostly), but to be honest, I never said "Hi, I'm The Audacity Works." (MI is a very, very small industry, and I constantly attempt to dodge conflict of interest situations. For example, Roland may never have given me a backstage sit-down with the Fantom-G three years ago if they knew I was programming patches for XXX at the time.)

I do, however, like to think I know more about manufacturing, licensing, distribution, industrial design, support networks, tech writing, and other MI aspects than your average[/b] Joe Schmo on the net. As such, when people claim Roland should just up and give them what they want—without ever stopping to think if a feature is feasible, efficient, worthwhile, doable without expensive third-party licensing, or even necessary, given the existing tools available—it elicits a reaction.

Thanks for the props, my friend, however exaggerated they may be.

When it comes to flaws on the fantom some people are just too hardcore to have civil discussion and can not even find any middle ground.

Quinnx...I was willing to play fair and address each matter. But I was attacked with the disgraceful I’ll ignore your statements and arguments and just make a long post on another topic technique. ) Just joking with you mojkarma.

And besides…If we were to keep arguing on this topic it would come to my conclusion anyway. All argument have a foundation so I am always confident when I enter them because I consider that foundation. And this is the first time I have just taken it to the end…So I play fair unless there is a reason not to.

To everything else, just repeat my second post on page 2.

But like I said….There is absolutely nothing wrong with making suggestions, using the proper channels.

I'll say only one thing to haters. "Try before you Buy"

TAW…LOL!

however exaggerated they may be.

You’re welcome… but I know you had a sinister grin on your face when you said that lol!

Now, this is exactly what you don't understand Artemiy:
I DO LIKE, I LOVE MY Fantom-XR.
But all the time wasted for something that other workstations have from past generations.... is not good for me.
Even if I would like to buy a fantom-g, all the time spend on the fantom-xr, all my work, is wasted, because, all the sampling, and specially, all the drumkits I've programed in the XR can not be transfered in G.
Not even with Yase (I can not save the "tweeking", only the multisample map, and samples.).

So, I am not saying that I don't like fantom-xr, or even fantom-g.
I am saying that maybe if Roland would pay attention to all the "whinnings" that are not from fantom-g , as from fantom-s, fantom-x, some of the features would be now in Fantom-G.

Again, I love my Fantom-XR, but loosing all my work turning to Fantom-G is not for me.

Damm, is this the reason why they saved that Zephyerized patch on the update?

Nice to see that my thread is getting up to speed.
I think I speak for everyone if I summarize the discussion as follows

- The G is a great synthesizer.
- It has a flawed file system, which is at the root of its internal working so it can't be much improved.
- There are issues with DAW integration, which CAN and should be fixed asap.
- Roland Corp. needs to be more open and professional in its communication to it's users, let them know they are valued, and take them serious. As a first step they should set up a proper issue-database.

If Roland would sign off on the last 2 points, I'm a happy camper.

I think I speak for everyone if I summarize the discussion as follows

No, not for me at all, and you have no facts at all…

Oh whatever …LOL….while slapping my head.

Visitors, please consider my second post on the second page.

Thanks guys!