Filter and CTRL Question

I also come back to this question of using the 4 Control Knobs for CC. I haven't yet deciphered the combination of System CTRL(pg 160) and Patch Matrix CTRL(pg 44) to make it happen. It seems it's possible...

Although, I've been successful in getting SYSEX messages out of them, that's it so far. Since I don't have a specific and immediate need yet, I've left it at that for now.

You mentioned using a disabled tone? Did you possibly try it enabled? Could it be that simple?

Thanks for bringing this up again! I know those knobs are good for something live, plus it would be nice to easily automate control changes in the sequencer

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As for the Filter Sweep, were you using Angelis Pad(soft pad)? or maybe VangJarris(brass)? I don't notice any zippering in those or any patches I can recall really. One thing tho, sometimes if the knobs are way out of sync with the patch settings, it will jump when you turn them - making a noise if your first adjustment is in the middle of a tone.

On a sidenote: I'm looking for a good, free VST filter, preferably with variable precision (24db+) that doesn't zip. If you know of one

Thanks for your quick response and it's good to know others also like Matrix Ctrl knobs. I did some more testing this evening and so far I've learned a few things.

The only knobs or sliders that send ccs at all are the cutoff CC74 and resonance CC71, and not in all modes. The Audio In fader is the only fader that sends sysex. All 6 knobs also send sysex when in TX transmit edit mode. The rest gets a little weird.

If I'm in Patch mode, say Juno G grand and make changes to the Matrix CTRl to allow CC74 to change the pitch (easy to hear) and turn the knob only the cutoff changes, not the pitch. The same happens when I go into song mode from the patch. If I switch to performance mode and make the same edit to part one and turn the knob the pitch shifts like you would expect and matrix ctrl works. In song mode it also works but only when entering from performance mode. Also the matrix ctrl records and plays back fine using the cutoff knob. Once, after editing part one in the song mode and going back to patch mode Juno G Grand the matrix ctrl seemed to remain and worked until I changed patches even though I could not duplicate this. Also, changes in pitch or matrix control in general, related to the final position of the matrix control when ending the sequence would also change the pitch of the Juno G Grand when going back to patch mode. It's hard to explain, but go to performance/song mode, sweep the matrix controlled pitch up +63 and when you go back to Patch mode your patch is 2 octaves or so higher or out of tune by the amount specified by the matrix control...weird. It seems like patch edits and matrix ctrl positions made in performance and/or song mode can carry over back to patch mode??? A patch reload was required to fix it. Anyway, I'm sure I don't fully understand the operation of the edit buffers.

So, for now, Matrix control can be achieved using the cutoff and resonance knobs in performance and performance/song modes but not in patch or patch/song mode (did happen once but have not yet been able to duplicate). I guess I'll just need to save my knob tweak patches as performances.

Also, this may be of limited use if it also causes cutoff or resonance changes that may not be desired. Maybe a well programmed cutoff/resonance offset would fix it? Or maybe, changing the tone select for the part to an unused tone would take care of this. I'll test some more.

I'll have to mess with different cutoff ctrl sources to see if the zippering can be minimized too.

I haven't messed with separate VST filters much. They are kind of limited when you want to filter per tone etc. That's a limitation of most VAs also, filters are at the patch rather than the oscillator level unless you want to do multi/combi/stack programming..

Ok, this is where I get a slight confused.

So you were able to get Cutoff Knob(presumably, CC 74) to change Pitch, but only in performance mode? Upon which the tweaks in performance mode then translated back to the corresponding patch?

That is a bit strange indeed. My thought is maybe that the Matrix Ctrl only works at the higher level as maybe in patch mode the parameter edits would be applied per tone? On the simultaneous Cufoff and Pitch, that somehow makes a little sense as CC 74 is still being generated.

Now, here is a big question for me, and maybe provides solution to Cutoff mystery... maybe you have figured some more things out. Is it possible to use the 4 ADSR knobs as Matrix Controllers? I can find no specific reference to them in the manual and I think I tried something of the sort once. What confuses me, is the reference to SYS CTRL 1-4. Is that not the 4 knobs? or is it simply another layer of mapable CC automation, presumably from an outside source?

I have strong desire to whomp the LFO and Effect Sends with them and just can't imagine I need a Novation to make it happen.

I guess there should be an 'assignable' button for the Sound Modify knobs, or a 4th LED(e.g. filter, env, lfo, +custom), maybe it's impossible - since there isn't?

Unfortunately, the only knobs that send ccs at all in any mode are the cutoff and res knobs. The other knobs only send sysex and AFAIK cannot be used as SYS CTRL 1-4, probably because they do double duty while using the mixer/edit screens etc. I think you're right that the reason cc74 doesn't work for matrix ctrl in patch mode is that the knob is actually working per tone, whereas an external cc74 message recieved at the midi in would act on all tones, regardless of your tone ctrl select settings. In Performance mode cc74 works on the whole part so I assume that's why the Matrix ctrl sources CC71 and CC74 also works fine using the cutoff and res knobs in that mode. I think the best use would be the resonance knob (cc71) as a matrix controller and then either disable that ctrl switch on that part (have not tested), add an additional ctrl destination with negative resonance on each tone so the res cancels itself out (have not tested) or use filter types LPF2 or LPF3 on the tones them selves in order to disable resonance. A resonance offset may also work but I believe you could only use half the knob values since the offset only goes to +/- 63.

It's unfortunate we can't use the wonderful knobs as 'true' controllers. I"m not a MIDI guru or anything but have to wonder why they send SysEx or at least don't have an extra option for CC mode. I mean, the Matrix Controllers even control Attack, Decay, and Release - but not Sustain Level? It seems they could be extended to other parameters too.

Using SysEx just doesn't seem like the most elegant solution. Although, in the engineers defense, CC in this case might be redundant as well.

I guess this is where I start complaining and call it an obvious bug.

OT, Did you notice the Sound Modify labels for LFO are wrong!!!? Pitch = Delay? Filter = Fade? Amp, I guess could equal Pitch-Depth, I'll give them that.

I digress, I like your ideas for extending the resonance knob; unfortunately I 'm not sure you can turn it off. The thing is, just one knob doesn't really give you anything much better than using the Pitch-Bender or D-Beam as a controller. I guess I will try and use the Mod Lever to get some functionality I'm looking for.

Additionally, after looking further into this I see that LFO1 can control LFO2 and vice versa. It's something I didn't notice before and didn't think was possible. That is, the LFO's can be used as Matrix Controllers which opens some possibilities, but I suspect that is only per-tone.

+1.5 for that, but -100 for utterly-practical and wonderfully-uncreative knobs.