When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

2 Feb 2022, 19:42

It seems I have to be blunt on here to get a reaction from Roland, as I contacted them in Australia and was just fobbed off to fill out a request ticket for Roland Backstage (that’s an appropriate named for it). I have mentioned the need for the aftertouch on the Fantom 8 to be repaired in another thread as have others but it seems to be lost in the other comments so I am reposting it here. Update to v3.00 is still missing some much needed and wanted functions like the aftertouch fixed on the Fantom 8. So offering an update that requires you to pay $149 for the N/Zyme is a joke for Fantom owners, these should be given for free to compensate for it's other unsolved bugs and flaws, which include the FANTOM 8 AFTERTOUCH NOT WORKING. I'm sure the N/Zyme is a good addon but PPG had the Wave 2 in 1981 which had complex wavetable synthesis and Behringer is making a low cost hardware clone of this.

Have we not paid enough for the Fantom already, and as mentioned elsewhere, what are new buyers going to think; oh cool look what the Fantom does, I mean it costs $6k (here) but, - oh wait a minute it doesn't do X, Y and Z unless I pay another $149 + $149 + $149. Why don't I just buy 3 Korg Volcas or save a few dollars more and get an ARP 2600 hardware clone instead. I could then download some free Wavetable Synths or (good) free Sequencer VSTs and run them in Ableton etc with the Fantom Integration anyway?

I mean, this is hilarious, Roland is bragging that 'The expandable sound engine delivers our best electronic and acoustic sounds, with the depth and control to combine and shape them in exciting new ways', but only if you pay $149 extra for each of the 'exiting new ways'. And wow after all of these years of research into modeling synths including all of our own past ones, we (at Roland) have just discovered a new thing the Fantom can do; it can use wavetables like a synth from 1981 and run other models of our old gear as well for $149 each. This sounds to me like Roland is just holding back functions and models that the Fantom could and should be able to do (and load for free); and dribbling them out to pad out their updates and slowly grab every nickel and dime they can. I know others do this, but I own a Fantom 8 not any of the others and I would rather save my nickels and dimes for something else, like a MODX or other hardware synth that does stuff the Fantom cannot do, after all the Fantom has a finite capacity so you can't use all the models and extra functions at once anyway.

In Australia, where I am located you can contact the ACCC as they have a policies in place when a manufacturer releases a substandard device:

‘When you have a major problem with a product, you have the right to ask for your choice of a replacement or refund. For a major problem with a service, you can choose to receive compensation for the drop in value below the price paid, or a refund.’

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

2 Feb 2022, 21:18

I agree with your sentiment about the aftertouch...it's useless. There's no gradation, or rather, very little control between no value and full value.

It really ought to be called, Afterbash.

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

28 Apr 2022, 21:41

Yes the knobs have 0-1023 resolution unlike the usual MIDI values of 0-127, but the aftertouch on mine is like BINARY (ON / OFF).

One of the worst things I find about the aftertouch being so BAD and ROLAND is not only IGNORING IT but releases a cheaper '0' model without the (faulty) aftertouch that basically functions like a Fantom. Another is that I have looked at all of the old reviews which helped to influence my purchase of a Fantom 8, and not a single one of the people who reviewed the Fantom mentioned that the aftertouch was not working correctly on any of the models. great keyboard players and testers they are, missing the one parameter which is named in all of the Fantom ads: 'Roland Fantom 8 88-Note Premium Weighted Keyboard Synth w/ Aftertouch ' So although Roland is not 100% to blame for this as the lazy reviewers were just parroting Roland's line like bad journalists just parrot political views spouted by politicians handed out to them in press releases and dont interview the actual politicians. However they are NOW 100% to blame for not rectifying the problem now that so many people have pointed it out.

All the reviewers state that it is that they are Roland's 'best' keyboards (i.e., meaning the keybeds) ever. I could not test or play the Fantom 8 myself before purchase as no-one near me had a demo model and Roland was drop shipping to customers after purchase. I stupidly trusted Roland to have aftertouch when stated as I have owned the Fantom X8 and G8 and the aftertouch on those worked well the G8 in particular, so there was no reason to suspect Roland would release a faulty product. What I am now concerned about is that I wanted aftertouch and if I sell it, their value is now comprimised especially with the release of the Fantom 0 series. I guess Roland will address the aftertouch in the Fantom MkII, and we will all be left with the one with the faulty aftertouch.

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

29 Apr 2022, 01:32

Synth Robot wrote:
Yes the knobs have 0-1023 resolution unlike the usual MIDI values of 0-127, but the aftertouch on mine is like BINARY (ON / OFF).

One of the worst things I find about the aftertouch being so BAD and ROLAND is not only IGNORING IT but releases a cheaper '0' model without the (faulty) aftertouch that basically functions like a Fantom. Another is that I have looked at all of the old reviews which helped to influence my purchase of a Fantom 8, and not a single one of the people who reviewed the Fantom mentioned that the aftertouch was not working correctly on any of the models. great keyboard players and testers they are, missing the one parameter which is named in all of the Fantom ads: 'Roland Fantom 8 88-Note Premium Weighted Keyboard Synth w/ Aftertouch ' So although Roland is not 100% to blame for this as the lazy reviewers were just parroting Roland's line like bad journalists just parrot political views spouted by politicians handed out to them in press releases and dont interview the actual politicians. However they are NOW 100% to blame for not rectifying the problem now that so many people have pointed it out.

All the reviewers state that it is that they are Roland's 'best' keyboards (i.e., meaning the keybeds) ever. I could not test or play the Fantom 8 myself before purchase as no-one near me had a demo model and Roland was drop shipping to customers after purchase. I stupidly trusted Roland to have aftertouch when stated as I have owned the Fantom X8 and G8 and the aftertouch on those worked well the G8 in particular, so there was no reason to suspect Roland would release a faulty product. What I am now concerned about is that I wanted aftertouch and if I sell it, their value is now comprimised especially with the release of the Fantom 0 series. I guess Roland will address the aftertouch in the Fantom MkII, and we will all be left with the one with the faulty aftertouch.

I just purchased a Fantom 8 two days ago after like you being unable to try one first hand, and while I agree that the aftertouch is pretty lousy and I am somewhat disappointed as it was one of the reasons I got the Fantom instead of the Fantom-0, I also doubt there's anything they can do to fix it since I'd think this would be a hardware issue. That said, I have noticed that some of their new SuperNatural sounds respond much better to the aftertouch than older sounds which theoretically use aftertouch, so I suppose their must be some kind of software solution possible - at least on the instrument end of things. I don't know if the operating system itself could be tweaked in a way to allow better control of older sounds which expect different sorts of aftertouch response.

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

29 Apr 2022, 03:29

I'm afraid that the aftertouch issue cannot be fixed with a simple firmware update, as I believe it is due to a hardware problem with the sensor strip. I have a Fantom 6 which suffers the same problem, but I'm going to take a look inside mine to see if the pressure strip can be physically altered in some way or replaced with a better sensor - I added a 3 octave strip to my ARP Odyssey which works like a dream, so I should be able to join two together to create one for 5 octaves.

It's worth trying just to see if it works.

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

30 Apr 2022, 00:31

Bach went tuning his klavier to a Good Temperament (wrongly translated as Well Temperament) in under 15 minutes, the myth keeps saying.

Take your time and let us know any progress, please.

Happy to see a Well Aftertouched Fantom is around the corner.

😀😀😀😀

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

1 May 2022, 11:27

Good luck with the surgery. I’m also just so annoyed at the broken aftertouch. Other synth manufacturers have managed to present hammer action keys with AT that works fine and smoothly without requiring undue pressure. Roland still have broken/non existent AT that they keep selling and marketing as working AT even after being made fully aware of the issue, meanwhile support fobs people off with blatant lies. Not good enough.

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

1 May 2022, 17:43

Hi,

Per wrote:
.... Other synth manufacturers have managed to present hammer action keys with AT that works fine and smoothly without requiring undue pressure. Roland still have broken/non existent AT that they keep selling ...

it's really hard to understand. On the former Fantom G8, with PHA3 keybed, the AT works very, very well. Two generations older than the current on new Fantom - PHA50.

I think it's a hardware design flaw, impossible to be fixed by software.

Best regards,
Flavio

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

2 May 2022, 03:05

The AT works on my Fantom 6, but it is very hard to control the amount of AT modulation.

But generally speaking: When I buy a synth from a dealer, the dealer is responsible that the customers rights are according to national laws. To me it is actually irrelevant what Roland say or do. I have returned synths because they had hardware issues and the manufacturer was unable to repair it:

- Elektron Digitone Keys had buttons that sometimes double triggered even if I only pushed the button once
- Novation Summit had one key which I had to hit harder than the others to achieve the same velocity
- Korg Prologue occasionally played notes totally out of tune. Korg denied that the synth had this issue until 9 months after I returned the synth. It was fixed with a firmware update.

So if AT did not work at all on my Fantom I would contact my dealer and ask for a guarantee repair. However, if they were not able to repair it I would probably keep the synth anyway because I like the synth so much. And in my experience issues with synths are unfortunately very common, regardless of price (Yamaha MODX and Sequential Prophet 6 are the only synths I have owned without noticeable hardware or firmware issues. And of course my 35 years old DX7).

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

3 May 2022, 09:50

osflaa wrote:
The AT works on my Fantom 6, but it is very hard to control the amount of AT modulation.

But generally speaking: When I buy a synth from a dealer, the dealer is responsible that the customers rights are according to national laws. To me it is actually irrelevant what Roland say or do. I have returned synths because they had hardware issues and the manufacturer was unable to repair it:

- Elektron Digitone Keys had buttons that sometimes double triggered even if I only pushed the button once
- Novation Summit had one key which I had to hit harder than the others to achieve the same velocity
- Korg Prologue occasionally played notes totally out of tune. Korg denied that the synth had this issue until 9 months after I returned the synth. It was fixed with a firmware update.

So if AT did not work at all on my Fantom I would contact my dealer and ask for a guarantee repair. However, if they were not able to repair it I would probably keep the synth anyway because I like the synth so much. And in my experience issues with synths are unfortunately very common, regardless of price (Yamaha MODX and Sequential Prophet 6 are the only synths I have owned without noticeable hardware or firmware issues. And of course my 35 years old DX7).

Yes I have a ModX as well and its a ridiculously good synth for the price, and seems bug free, and I owned a Montage so it really does the same job (no aftertouch though like the Fantom 0 series). I have been looking to (maybe) get a Fantom 08 after any flaws have been ironed out, but I would be interested to know if I can use the Fantom 8 models that I own in the Fantom 08, I wont take that for granted.

Here is a review from SOS who I thought were good at reviewing hardware, who appeared to forget to test the after touch although it's important:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-fantom

Another reason why myself and other Fantom users are complaining about the sequencer, is that the 2009 Fantom G (which I owned) had:

'24‑track audio recording', and a '128‑track MIDI sequencer': https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-fantom-g

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

6 May 2022, 02:24

Synth Robot wrote:
Here is a review from SOS who I thought were good at reviewing hardware, who appeared to forget to test the after touch although it's important:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-fantom

Another reason why myself and other Fantom users are complaining about the sequencer, is that the 2009 Fantom G (which I owned) had:

'24‑track audio recording', and a '128‑track MIDI sequencer': https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-fantom-g

My impression is that Roland try to adapt to how they think most musicians produce music nowadays; based on patterns and automation. Or they believe that people only will use the Fantom for drafts and finish their songs in a DAW anyway. I miss the possibility for linear recording in the Fantom because I like to make variations and transitions that overlap between the parts of a song. This is perhaps possible with patterns, but is not an efficient workflow to make a separate patterns for every variation, transition and detail. The latest update with wavetable synthesis adds to my impression because it is very popular in electronic music nowadays and 'everyone' use wavetable VSTs like Serum, Vital etc.

As for the aftertouch my impression is that fewer and fewer people care about the quality of the keybed. I have watched a lot of Youtube-reviews on popular channels like Bobeats, True Cuckoo and Loopop and they barely mention the keybed. It's all about features, features and features. This is a pity because even if my playing is simple/bad the keybed is extremely important to me. It's actually the main interface between me and the instrument. However, I find it a bit strange that magazines like SOS does not focus more on the keybed and hardware in general as I consider them very serious and a bit 'old school'. I really love the feel and action of the Fantom keybed, except the aftertouch.

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

6 May 2022, 08:13

Considering we are talking about the Fantom 8, the feel of the keyboard IS the major feature. So, it is even more disappointing that reviewers haven't said much about the aftertouch issues.

Unfortunately, aftertouch seems to be hit and miss on far too many synths. Synth makers need to understand, aftertouch isn't just a check off item on the feature list. If they don't do it right, they should just not have it at all.

For synth playing, I don't worry too much about how the keyboard feels for normal playing (not using aftertouch). I mean it matters, but I can compensate if the feel isn't ideal. The expression on a synth keyboard is primarily just velocity and I can do that consistently with a good or bad keyboard. But aftertouch is all about constantly variable expression and it needs to be consistently controllable. Bad aftertouch ruins the experience.

But I have to admit, I have a different attitude about the Fantom 8. I have one on order, so I haven't tried one yet. I wanted a good electronic piano (e.g. RD-2000 or FP-90X), but I am primarily a synth player, so the Fantom synth features are a huge bonus for not much more money (I mean it is a lot of synth and a lot of piano in one box). As good of a piano I'm going to buy without actually buying an acoustic piano. Anyway, with the Fantom 8, I am more concerned that having aftertouch might mess with the piano action (feel too squishy at the bottom of travel). I wonder if Roland made a compromise between having aftertouch, but keeping it stiff so it doesn't make the keyboard feel too squishy (for all 3 models, the 8, 7 and 6). I could understand that on the 8, but the 7 and 6 shouldn't be that way as they are synth action keyboards.

Anyway, I guess I will find out when it arrives.

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

6 May 2022, 14:35

Congratulations, mlohmeyer.

You will enjoy it very much for sure, regardless of this and that...

What system are you planning to use it with ?
Active monitors ?
Passive loudspeakers...?

😀😀😀😀

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

6 May 2022, 21:19

mlohmeyer wrote:
Considering we are talking about the Fantom 8, the feel of the keyboard IS the major feature. So, it is even more disappointing that reviewers haven't said much about the aftertouch issues.

Unfortunately, aftertouch seems to be hit and miss on far too many synths. Synth makers need to understand, aftertouch isn't just a check off item on the feature list. If they don't do it right, they should just not have it at all.

For synth playing, I don't worry too much about how the keyboard feels for normal playing (not using aftertouch). I mean it matters, but I can compensate if the feel isn't ideal. The expression on a synth keyboard is primarily just velocity and I can do that consistently with a good or bad keyboard. But aftertouch is all about constantly variable expression and it needs to be consistently controllable. Bad aftertouch ruins the experience.

But I have to admit, I have a different attitude about the Fantom 8. I have one on order, so I haven't tried one yet. I wanted a good electronic piano (e.g. RD-2000 or FP-90X), but I am primarily a synth player, so the Fantom synth features are a huge bonus for not much more money (I mean it is a lot of synth and a lot of piano in one box). As good of a piano I'm going to buy without actually buying an acoustic piano. Anyway, with the Fantom 8, I am more concerned that having aftertouch might mess with the piano action (feel too squishy at the bottom of travel). I wonder if Roland made a compromise between having aftertouch, but keeping it stiff so it doesn't make the keyboard feel too squishy (for all 3 models, the 8, 7 and 6). I could understand that on the 8, but the 7 and 6 shouldn't be that way as they are synth action keyboards.

Anyway, I guess I will find out when it arrives.

The keybed on the Fantom 8 is the best part of it, really. I recently got one and, like you, was looking for a high quality keybed. The aftertouch doesn't interfere with that. Unfortunately, the aftertouch doesn't work all that fantastically, either, but as far as the piano feel of the keys it's very nice.

Re: When is Roland going to fix the Aftertouch on the FANTOM 8 instead of releasing updates to nickel and dime us with?

9 May 2022, 01:42

FGM wrote:
You will enjoy it very much for sure, regardless of this and that...

What system are you planning to use it with ?
Active monitors ?
Passive loudspeakers...?

😀😀😀😀

Yes, I am very much looking forward to getting it. I will use it with my studio monitors (and headphones sometimes).

Lazerlike42 wrote:
The keybed on the Fantom 8 is the best part of it, really. I recently got one and, like you, was looking for a high quality keybed. The aftertouch doesn't interfere with that. Unfortunately, the aftertouch doesn't work all that fantastically, either, but as far as the piano feel of the keys it's very nice.

Lazerlike42, thanks for letting me know. The quality of the piano keyboard is what matters to me most. For aftertouch, I have a Hydrasynth Deluxe (poly-aftertouch) which is pretty decent, and hoping my Expressive E Osmose pre-order comes sometime this year. Those are the two synths I got for aftertouch and MPE expression. Hence why I am not too concerned if the Fantom 8's aftertouch doesn't work that well. There is more than enough other good reasons for me to own a Fantom 8 and I will stack the Osmose or Hydrasynth on the tier above the Fantom if I want aftertouch on the Fantom. Still, it is too bad we have to do that.