Roland missed the "train"

Oh, come on! How long has the Fantom G existed for? What -- like about two years, right?

Well -- look at it this way: Korg took forever to put out their (now) "incredible" Kronos. But it's more of a continuation -- a harkening back -- to the Oasys. In fact, Korg took a lot longer to succeed their own groundbreaking synth with something that people could actually afford.

I have made some legendarily brusque statements of my own on this forum, but even I wouldn't say that Roland has missed anything. Be patient, grasshopper -- everything in its due course.

- Sammy

But this was the year they needed to have the successor to the "G".

Who told you so? The G has PERFECT hardware, simply PERFECT. Gorgeous in/out converters, fantastic keyboard, great body, great display, etc. If Roland wanted to have a new workstation, they'd release OS 2.0 for it.

But it's that Roland no longer believes that workstation is the future. It's sad that they're burning the bridges this quickly, but they HAVE to sell new stuff, or they'll be out of business.

I am not defending Roland in any way though... it's up to you and others to think what you want to think about them. Apple throws lemons at us once in a while too.

While I kind of like Kronos, I do agree with Sammy - it looks like a scaled down OASYS, which is like 10 years old now. No disrespect to Korg though, it's a great effort. And their iOS apps and plugin are also showing how flexible these guys are. But Kronos is dead for me because the workstation is dead. I can get all of Kronos synths for about $500 on a $1000 computer, and do a lot more with it. Why should I pay 2x the price for this?

HALLELUJAH!!! ARTEMIY HAS SEEN THE LIGHT!!!



Welcome home, my friend. I knew that you would finally figure it out. Workstations ARE dead, but not so much for live playing (yet).

I suspect that the workstation concept will continue on, but I'm really just hoping that someday, some manufacturer will create something nice and rugged and light-weight that lets you take your sequencer and your plug-ins on the road. Open Labs has tried this, but their product is too bulky and heavy for many of us (especially for me -- my back! My hernia! My heart! My God...!!!)

I'm also hoping that Roland figures out that Sonar could be a good brain for a keyboard workstation. Or something like that...

- Sammy

P.S. I still love workstations. I was raised on one, you know. So it isn't like I'm sitting here throwing stones at people over it. True, I gave up on dedicated hardware synths, but I bascially did this to create my own custom workstation. Cubase with Omnisphere, Kontakt, and the Korg ALC suite is a great way to make a lot of music. I wish that there was better hardware for all of this great software, but I'll take my lumps and shut up -- because I can literally create a song with 500+ voices and have room for 500 more on my system.

I disagree as well. When I go see many of the working bands around town, I see Nord Nord Nord Nord everywhere. With their new combo organ, and the versatile VR-700, and the new stage pianos, Roland is offering some direct competition for this very large sector of the market, the performing musician.

As far as workstations go, you can make anything from the last 10 years or so sound fantastic, and not really use any of it to its full potential before being lured away by something new and shiny.

I've owned Motifs (ES, XS), Tritons, Karmas, Rolands, Kurzweils, sound modules, analogs, Nords...it all does the job. It's up to you to find what works best for you in your situation. As far as missing the train, I think Roland gets it just right for me. Whatever product an individual hates, 10 other individuals may love.

Agreed. I've owned all of the same products that you mentioned. I've used every single type of product under the sun, and finally I just threw my hands up and said: "That's IT! I refuse to sit here and keep on buying new crap every six months!"

I have a particular set of things that I am trying to do with my music. But at the end of the day, YOU must decide what YOU need. If you need something that will let you play live, then buy something that lets you play live, and milk it for all that it is worth. If you need something for the studio, get ONE THING and make it work.

Avoid the trap that I once set for myself -- buying something new hoping that it would cure my musical problems. I have finally learned to live with the choices that I've made, and I'm much happier for it. I may occasionally upgrade my system, but that is a far cry from how I used to sit there and wail about how "my Motif sucks!" or "my Karma doesn't do enough!" or "my Triton already sounds old!"

Jeez Louise. What WAS I doing back then...? I shake my head in utter disbelief and agony when I think of those days!

Be happy with what you own. Make beautiful music with it. I guarantee you that you haven't even spent one FIFTH of the energy that you'd need to seriously exhaust the potential of the gear that you already have sitting in front of you.

Later.

- Sammy

Welcome home, my friend. I knew that you would finally figure it out. Workstations ARE dead, but not so much for live playing (yet)

Actually Artemiy and I are one of the only ones who have seen this for a while now.. Heck they even have a dedicated "Workstation is Dead according To Septimo" thread floating around with plenty of people saying nay... I've seen it for about two or three years now, and have been preaching that gospel here with plenty of opposition from folks here who refuse to let it go or can't handle the fact that software has won this war.. Made a lot of angry people here, but now they see...(maybe they just didn't want to hear it from me..) And I also believe Roland knew this when they released their G... I mean c'mon, they gotta have professional people looking to forecast these situations for their own futures sake..

This is the final attempt, I believe.. And i don't think Roland missed the train.. The train has been running out of track to ride for a while now... I believe Roland led the train with the G, and now are most likely the first to get off it before it crashes..

Hey Septimo

Yes, getting back to who use the keyboard workstations... I don't know, out of serious producers, who would use them and how? I think some would use them as basic sound sources, not as workstations. And those that you see in the interviews - they're paid endorsers! That's it.

Live is my main use for the G and it does great!

Studio, no use for the last several months. I know there are a few sounds on the G that will be useful for me in the "synthy" department. Accoustic sounds no.

So, when I think about it, the updates I would welcome on the G are not as big a deal since it is already a very good live box. But, no excuse not to have Organ modeling, no excuse at all.

I don't understand why are people so focused to the word "workstation"?
It doesn't mean that you need a workstation to produce a song these days. And neither Korg nor Yamaha forces to show how great their sequencer is.
Actually, most live player use workstations because they are the most flexible ones, have the best sounds, a sampler, lot of effects and other things which are important on the stage.
So, it's IMHO completely wrong to say that the workstation is dead. What does Roland offer that is comparable to the Fantom G? The Juno stage with its vast 64 Performance memory and zero Mb for own samples?
It's no better at Korg and Yamaha.

So, there is a sequencer. I can use it for catching up some ideas, or I can use it live to trigger some of my songs, backing tracks and similar stuff. That's it. The rest goes to my live use and there I'm absolutely not interested in dealing with a laptop and a midicontroller.

Rolands problem is not the unproven fact (but I agree with it for recording purposes) that the workstation concept is dead.
Their problem is the amazing inability to properly implement things.
Besides all those things we mentioned here hundred times, just a new came into my mind today while playing a little with the preset organs.
They created that new ability/behavior on the joystick where only one note gets pitched on a guitar sound. That's a great feature. But it's amazing how on the other side they still use that idiotic system to activate slow/fast rotary speed on organs. They do that now for 15 years! Korg uses the joystick as an on/off switch since the Trinity (1995) or even earlier. And Roland forces us still on the factory patches to hold the joystick away from as when we want fast rotary.
A company with that level of dumbness, without the ability to see the product as a whole picture and not just fiddling with this or that part of it can't be successful on the market.
That's why we get a diatonic v-accordeon or that idiotic guitar synth where the guitar player demonstrates it by playing hammond patches on it.

I'm sorry, man.. But the invention of the Workstation was intended for production if music.. And it was the producer who kept this project funded.. It was the hip hopper and dance producers who had these things in their studios and the main reason why they where being mass produced. Now that the Market has lost these guys to better and cheaper options which was probably more than 70% of the customers, there is no way it can continue.. Who's gonna support it? the live players? There are cheaper options for that, and I'm sure Roland will seek that route for you live guys.. Like give you less studio features and seek out newer ways to make your live experience more innovative.. give you a simple sampler/seq-recrdr/etc.. whatever they do, it ain't gonna be 3 grand worth of old studio concepts that can't even come close to what they've been able to do on an iPod now a days...

For you live guys who don't want or not interested in the 'controller' idea, well guess what? you'll still have your older keyboards until the PC/controller meets your standards or you decide to lower your expectations of what you want and stick to what you need.. Like the Juno.. maybe it will get the build quality of a fantom they need to get live players to feel like they have a better quality live board.... But either way Roland don't care about your interest, their concern is only theirs.. I mean that's why they make live Midi instruments that can perform live and do it well.. Think about it, live players don;t need all the features of a workstations if they only use a handful... You don't use a shotgun to kill a fly..

I've said this before, but Remember, people thought that VS-series would go to 64 and 128 tracks some day.. They never went passed 24.. before they scratched that idea.. They didn't care a bit for those who preferred recording with a hardware recorder.. There weren't enough of those guys to keep it funded.. Most had moved on to PC and Apple Daws.. So Roland got involved in Software Daws... Bye bye, VS series! So I doubt that Roland will invest the R&D resources into designing Workstations for live guys to use less than half the features, for live players to be their only customers... that's throwin money out the window..

Go ahead Roland continue making Fantoms! See how long you last.. I believe this is the final attempt by the industry(korg/Yamie) to try and get their last sales they can out of old projects that they've probably had for years now.. I'm sure there will be a limited number of these produced to make sure they don't over do it

This is perfect for Roland to be making...

http://www.rolandconnect.com/product.php?p=at-350c

AAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! SEPTIMO!!! NOOOOOOOOooooo....!!!!! NO ORGANS!!!

I am an organ donor... or maybe not...



- Sammy

Septimo:

Seriously, you are partly correct about the players and producers and all of that. But there is something else at work here too.

Computers made the workstation POSSIBLE. Computers have also made the workstation IRRELEVANT.

There was a time when you couldn't play a synthesizer program on a computer. At least, you couldn't play a 64-voice multi-oscillator sample- or FM- or virtual-analog-based synthesizer with effects on a computer. You couldn't even play synth AND sequence on the same machine, until about 1996 or 1997. And those days were full of promise AND problems.

I remember walking into a Guitar Center in 2001, and playing with Cubase and some Evolution keyboard. I turned a knob on the controller and waited for about 45 seconds for the on-screen "knob" to turn and make the sound change. (Being a bit facetious, but you get the idea.)



At that time, the only way to get great performance out of a keyboard instrument was to buy something that was specifically designed for the purpose. This is why the Karma and the Fantom S and other such products were so attractive. I remember absolutely LOATHING the software synths of the day, stating plainly that I would "never" use them, because I liked HARDware, not SOFTware.

The point is that the industry has changed a lot, and it's because ten years later, I can do the same thing at home -- and now the knob turns itself Ipretty much). I will be putting out an album later this year that was done using all software and ASIO4ALL V2 -- I didn't even bother to buy a nice audio interface for my computer. This album will probably have some of you wondering how I did it, because of the intricacy of the music, and the layered sound.

Computers have grown in popularity, but really, it is because the technology has improved. I'm just pointing this out, because a lot of people are very angry right now about how their way of life has changed. I agree that it is difficult -- and I'm on-guard right now for the next big change, which could threaten the computer DAW. That change?

The iPad.

But anyway -- that change won't happen overnight. Just as the hardware synth workstation hasn't died overnight. It will take at least another five or ten years before you won't see anymore of these being produced brand-new and waiting for us in music stores.

What I hope will happen -- and there is some indication that it is possible -- would be seeing manufacturers focussed more on the physical products themselves. I would love to have a very NICE MIDI controller, that is fun and elegant to play. I prefer this to having a cheapo piece of plastic that I can throw away and buy another and not have to worry about it.

But we'll see.

Anyway, I'm defintely rambling here, but I guess that what I'm saying is that we all pretty much agree on what is happening. Some of us are reacting to that news differently. But at least we can all agree that we understand what is going on, and pretty much even why.

Later.

- Sammy