How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

29 Nov 2008, 14:41

So I've recently been reading up on recording and mixing etc, and I'm trying to work a few things out.

So the "proper" level to record at is around -20 to -12 dB.
I'm running my FG8 into my Edirol UA101, into Logic 8.

It seems that I have to boost the FG's output gain to about +2dB, the master volume to 110, and patch volume to 127, and wave gains to 12+ all round to get my piano to that level. This is with mastering OFF, which leads me to my first question.

Should I drop the wave gains, and turn on the mastering, or boost the wave gains and turn it on? Which is best for the signal?

I have to turn the master volume knob to at least over half way to get Logic to read the output at the "ideal" levels. Is this not adding distortion to my sound? I'd have thought it wouldn't need to be over a 3rd of the way up.

On the matter of the Master Volume knob, can anyone (Dan/Art) tell me whether it works by lowering the signal from full (knob all the way up) or is there a zero point, where it starts to add gain (destructive)

Lewis.

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 08:35

A rule of thumb has always been to record as hot as you can without unwanted distortion.

But one has to remember that rule of thumb relates back to the days of tape recording where hiss was a problem. You wanted to get the best signal to noise ratio. Later, with 16-bit recording, one wanted to record as hot a possible because of the bit depth, but now with 24bit recordings or even 32-bit float, I'd say you can feel quite free to leave relatively much more headroom, because you will not run into noise or bit-depth problems.

I hope this translates to what you were after.

If you want to study more, here are three links on topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_to_noise
http://www.audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bit_Depth

Jesse J / The Fantom G Facebook group - Please join!

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 11:25

I see the point you're making Jessej, but it's not really what I'm getting at.

I know I can afford more headroom and the likes with higher bit depth, but my problem is that I'm struggling even to hit the -20 to -12 range, let alone as hot as I can record, unless my master volume on the FG is wound up to at least 4/5 of the way up, surely this is destructive to my signal and adds to the noise floor?

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 11:29

Hmm.. I don't have a UA101 but some googling found me this:

I quote:
"each pair of line inputs can be switched between -10dBV and +4dBu operation via tiny rear-panel DIP switches."

(source: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may05/articles/edirolua101.htm)

That would raise your levels up to par.

Jesse J / The Fantom G Facebook group - Please join!

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 11:40

I've done that too!

Maybe I need to invest in a preamp? I wouldn't have thought I'd need to for a keyboard.

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 11:43

So, in what mode do you have the dip switches?

What are your settings on the G MENU>System Setup>Sound?

Jesse J / The Fantom G Facebook group - Please join!

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 12:35

The dip switch is set to -10dBu.

G menu is 110 on Master Level and 2dB boost on Output gain.

Either on anymore and I get clipping either from the internal or at the outputs.

I can post up a raw WAV of the file, which you can check out to see if it seems ok to you?

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 13:22

sure I can, or whoever here on the forum checks it out first...

Jesse J / The Fantom G Facebook group - Please join!

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 14:32

http://media.putfile.com/Lewis-piano-for-RC

Here is a 24 bit WAV of a bit of piano (Certainly not something I've put effort into!)

Hopefully someone can check this out and tell me if it sounds about right to put into a mix, I've been messing about so much trying to get the sound right that I've lost any reference points.

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 17:36

Are you using balanced cables? If not try that, it should give you significant extra gain.

Also, you could use digital but it looks like the UA101 only has optical SPDIF so you'd have to put a coax->optical converter inbetween. May be cheaper to add a separate coax SPDIF box. I use coax SPDIF from the Fantom into my VS2480 and it gives maximum signal and of course bit-perfect recordings. In fact the Fantom's volume knob will not even affect the output level coming from the SPDIF out.

Keep in mind that your UA101 input sensitivity should be set to -10dbV for maximum gain (recording level). Of course if the G uses +4 you could easily overload the input but that doesn't seem to be happening (that could be due to using unbalanced cables though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXz0UkVBZPQ
TOYZ in 60 seconds (short live video of my progrock band on YouTube)

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 17:49

Regarding levels, in general in a studio situation I would still try to record a fairly hot signal. The reason for headroom is mostly to prevent the mix bus from overloading once you start adding more tracks at mix time but you can stil lower the individual tracks to prevent that from happening.

When doing live recordings I will always have at least 12dB headroom but if you are in a studio recording yourself you can get by with much less, especially if you use the sequencer to record your tracks first and only then transfer them to the daw since if it does clip, you simply hit undo, lower the gain and hit play/rec again for another transfer.

BTW, our recorders may have 24 bit converters and store everything in 24 or 32 or even 64 bit format, but the actual physical dynamic range realized by those converters in the first place is definitely less than 24 bit (which would equal 144dB). The bottom few bits basically represent the thermal noise floor, ie they contain nothing more than noise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXz0UkVBZPQ
TOYZ in 60 seconds (short live video of my progrock band on YouTube)

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 18:05

I'm not using balanced cables, I wasn't aware this would increase my gain!
If it does, that will almost certainly get the improvement I want.

How much should that change add to my signal?
I am using -10dBu at the moment.

The WAV I posted was the Master knob at about 5 marks from full. Menu>System>Sound> Master Volume - 110, and Output Gail +2dB.

The patch had settings of Level = 127, all waves at 12+, and mastering compression ON.

Logic was reading me at around -20dB. It seems too quiet for those settings!

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 18:09

put the dips to +4dBu like I suggested earlier...

Jesse J / The Fantom G Facebook group - Please join!

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 18:19

When I put the dip switches on +4dBu the signal is reduced!

Re: How loud is the G?/How do you record it?

30 Nov 2008, 18:44

Ok, just checking so we know the dips aren't inversed or something.. !)

Next try balanced cables like said.

Jesse J / The Fantom G Facebook group - Please join!