Help using Juno-G and a midi controller

Hmmm...now I'm confused!

I've got it to do what I want - but only by putting my computer between the two keyboards!?

Basically, if I start up my sequencing software, create a single midi track, assign the track's input to come from the midi controller (selecting the midi channel that I know it's outputing), and then the output to go to the juno-g (selecting the midi channel for the performance's part I want to play), then I can play one part on the midi controller keyboard and another part on the juno-g.

But I don't understand why the juno-g behaves differently between sending it midi output from sequencing software or sending it direct from a midi keyboard...surely it just sees midi information on a particular channel and should behave the same? The only difference I can see is that with the sequencing software I'm using the USB connection in midi mode whereas when I connect the midi controller directly I just use the standard midi connection.

Does this make sense to anyone? I'm pleased I can get it to do what I want but it seems a bit overkill to have to use the computer and software like this...ideally I'd like to just connect the two keyboards together with a straight midi lead.

Sorry if that was a bit long-winded...thanks for listening - I'd really appreciate it if anyone has any ideas about it.

Cheers, IanR

I've just tried myself and found exactly the same problem. Seems all channels/parts play when normal MIDI is connected, but separate parts play properly via Cubase and USB MIDI straight back into the Juno. Hmmm. I'm stumped too. We need some help here folks!

Further to this though, Ian, have you experienced any noise issues from using the Juno's USB connection? I posed this problem on the forum a while back. I get a very intense, high pitch, but low volume, digital distortion noise as soon as the USB connects PC and Juno. It's something to do with my whole system (Dell Dimension 8300 PC, Steinberg MI4 audio interface, Juno G), I know this because the sound cuts out for a split second whilst programs (particularly soft-synths) load... but the problem came along when the Juno arrived. My previous set-up with an Edirol PCR-80 was silent. The only difference being that only USB was connected there, no audio-out like on the Juno. Basically I'm sure I'm hearing the PC working, but only because of something to do with how the Juno is electrically wired. I might be wrong, but it's my best guess. So, have you found this too?

I haven't noticed the noise problem but I haven't really used it with the USB MIDI connection much - (I've only had it a couple of weeks).

I'll do some testing and let you know.

As for the MIDI issue - I might try e-mailing Roland support and see what they say...it seems like such a basic thing to do so I'm sure there must be a way around it!?

Cheers.

What's even more worrying is the fact that, whilst the real MIDI IN plays the performance as a whole, as played directly from the Juno's keyboard... MIDI via USB successfully splits channels/parts but offers no possibility of playing the performance as a whole!!!

So it seems - use real MIDI to play performances, use USB to use the synth multitibrally. Insane! Especially if users don't have gear to have the choice!


Also, via USB, playing individual channels allows parts to sound outside the programed KEYRANGES! Something perhaps unlikely to be a problem in most circumstances, if wanting to use the synth multitimbrally, but odd in its ingorance of settings!

This is beyond bizarre! I can't find any settings to change this! I got to the point of thinking that in Performance mode, keyranges apply more to the Juno's physical keyboard function than the synth itself... it would then make sense that external controllers ignore key range assignments (although this would be pretty useless!) but since the real midi input plays performances intact i'm not sure this can be the case! Roland!!!

And to add to the oddness of all things Roland... well Edirol in this case... (but same-as)... My PCR-80 should operate as a MIDI controller when using an AC adapter (never tried - adaptor packed away), but when plugged into USB, to power itself, DIRECT MIDI out is not a straight-forward option. The design is such that MIDI messages have to go via the PC, and therefore need a software host like Cubase to be running, to then return the signal back through the keyboard and out of its real MIDI out... surely all taking up time and introducing MIDI latency. This, despite otherwise allowing pretty complex things to be done. The one solution is far from ideal - swithing on V-Link sends messages directly to real MIDI out, but practically every other key has a program change message assigned, thus swithing sounds on synths as you play up the keyboard! Swithing recieve off in the destination synth then clearly prevents you from remotely swithing programs! This is bizarre! I've got two keyboards from the same manufacturer and the pair have mental MIDI quirks over simple, fundamental way of operating!

let me understand... because maybe I'm not getting your point... playing a part of a performance from an external controller is something pretty simple and standard, and something I'm using intensively...
Here's what I do.
I have an external midi controller that transmits on channel X (I use channel 5). Then I simply choose a patch for part #5 in a performance and I play that patch through the external keyboard.
For the Juno, you simply choose what parts you want to play locally and set the keyboard switch to on for those parts.
The midi mode must not be on USB, so I found that many times I turn the keyboard on, connect the external controller and then I have to go to the USB menu (USB key) and set the midi to normal midi operation instead of usb midi, otherwise the Juno does not receive.
That's all... there are some songs where I use 5 or 6 different patches split or layered across the Juno and the external keyboard!
Some keyboards have an OMNI mode, where they receive and trasmit on every channel instead on the specified midi Tx and Rx channels: check that the omni mode is off both on your controller and on the Juno-G.

I'm not sure I can describe it any clearer. The two MIDI inputs (traditional and USB) operate in completely opposite manners. And I can find no settings to change this.

Via normal traditional MIDI conection, my Juno plays all parts within performances as a whole, in exactly the same way as if played from the Juno's keyboard itself - as defined/limited by the keyranges set within the performance, and by the keyboard switch settings. The complete performance plays irrespective of the fact I am transmitting on only one MIDI channel from controller keyboard to Juno. I cannot find parameters within the Juno to change this. Essentially, via traditional midi, the remote keyboard replaces the Juno's Keyboard. It is not possible to play individual parts within performances without switching parts off using keyboard switches within performances... which obviously then prevents the Juno's own keyboard playing these sounds too.

Conversely, via USB MIDI, ONLY individual parts within performances can be played. The performance cannot be played as a whole as played from the Juno's keyboard... (without a controller keyboard capable of splits programmed identically to the Juno). I can find no parameters in the Juno's menus to force performances to play as programmed, yet from a remote keyboard transmitting only one channel... AS IS PRECISELY WHAT'S PLAYED VIA TRADITIONAL MIDI (not shouting, just emphasis!). Playing my controller keyboard via PC+Cubase on into the Juno via USB MIDI, proves my controller is only transmitting a single channel... changing MIDI channel from the controller keyboard itself results in the appropriate part within the performance sounding in the juno. Furthermore, keyranges are entirely ignored, all parts will sound over their entire range if such pitches are played. This may be unhelpful.

I am surprised the Juno works totally in either of these restrictive states.

Any more ideas/help/similar-experiences???

RobJuno, if you read my post... that's *not* the way *my* juno-g works! I am able to play just the channel I want from the external controller on the traditional MIDI connection. In fact, I do this all the time.
- did you check that in your controller the OMNI mode, if present, is off?
- did you try with another controller?
- did you check that the usb mode is set to internal memory or card and *not* to usb midi?
- are you using the juno connected to the midi controller *and* pc at the same time?
I don't have any other ideas...

"Playing my controller keyboard via PC+Cubase on into the Juno via USB MIDI, proves my controller is only transmitting a single channel..."
mmmh... I'm not so sure... the pc echoes back midi messages to the Juno, and it could be echoing just on one channel, but the controller could be actually trasmitting on all channels...

"Furthermore, keyranges are entirely ignored"
yes, this is true. Keyrange is a local property... and is valid only for parts with local on and assigned to the juno keyboard. If you don't have a controller that allows to set up zones with different midi channels, you have to create some patches with the key range directly inside the patch, and put them on different parts on the same midi channel (the channel where the controller transmits).

Thanks for the suggestions, tompabes...sorry I'm a bit slow - for some reason I haven't been getting notifications of the activity on this thread!?

Anyway, like RobJuno, I'm pretty sure my controller is only transmitting on the one channel - I convinced myself of this by plugging it into a vst host on my pc, playing a vst instrument and it sounded ok...then filtering just that one channel from the vst host midi inputs and the vst instrument didn't sound.

But still, when I connect the controller to the Juno all active parts of the performance play not just the one assigned to the channel that the controller is transmitting.

I'll double-check some of your suggestions and let you know...the usb mode might have been set to midi so I'm not sure if this would cause this effect.

I'm also still trying to get through to Roland support about it - I'm just having difficulty registering before it'll allow me to contact support...as you say, it is something pretty standard we're trying to do so I'm sure there's an answer somewhere.

Thanks again for the suggestions...I'll keep you posted!

Cheers, IanR

Ok - I've sussed it

It was a combination of something tompabes said and one other setting that I think I'd adjusted while fiddling around trying to get it to work, but without really understanding the significance of the setting at the time I couldn't get it quite right to get the affect I wanted.

The two things I'm talking about are the USB MODE setting (as tompabes suggested) and the "Remote Keyboard Switch" - I've put a table below to show how these settings work together - basically with the "Remote Keyboard Switch" ON then playing the Juno with any external midi controller will play the performance exactly as if the Juno's own keyboard had been played (i.e., playing all the active parts of the performance), and with the "Remote Keyboard Switch" OFF then the part assigned to the midi channel that the external device is transmitting gets played (but only if the USB MODE is set to STORAGE MODE and not MIDI MODE).

[table]
[tr]
[td] [/td]
[td]Remote Keyboard Switch ON[/td]
[td]Remote Keyboard Switch OFF[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]USB MIDI MODE[/td]
[td]Whole performance played from external MIDI device[/td]
[td]Nothing plays when external device played[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]USB STORAGE MODE[/td]
[td]Whole performance played from external MIDI device[/td]
[td]Playing external device plays part assigned to it's transmitting MIDI channel, Playing JUNO keyboard plays whole performance as normal[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

(Oh - almost forgot...you set the "Remote Keyboard Switch" by going to the EDIT section, pressing the MENU button, selecting "2. System" then MIDI.)

Tompabes - thanks for pointing us in the right direction

RobJuno - you should be able to get both of the set ups you describe (either playing a specific part OR playing the whole performance from an external device) by flipping the "Remote Keyboard Switch"

Cheers, IanR

Interesting! I didn't notice that parameter... it could be useful. Thanks!

Ian, thanks for your post, I've now got the REAL MIDI input to play single parts within performances. That's half of the problem sorted. Excellent.

BUT

I still cannot get anything other than individual parts to play via USB MIDI, regardless of how the remote keyboard switch is set.

Are you sure you can?

Your box suggests that via USB MIDI you get the performance as a whole or nothing at all, which in itself is unsatisfactory, and obscure that REAL MIDI and USB MIDI should operate differently at all! But I get the complete reverse - single parts always sounding.

I'm also going to post a new thread about the modulation lever's operation. If you're reading this, would you take a look there and see if you can replicate what I am finding. Thanks!

Ok - apologies first...maybe my table was a bit misleading. The table refers only to using the standard midi connection. Where I mention USB midi I was just trying to show how the USB mode setting effects the standard midi connection (i.e., with the remote keyboard switch off and USB mode set to midi then the standard midi connection won't work)

So - as far as using the USB midi mode, I guess it depends on the software you're using...I've managed to get both cases working using the SONAR LE software that came with the Juno. If you create a MIDI track, set it's output to the Juno G and select 'None' for the MIDI output channel then the whole performance plays. Alternatively, if you select a specific MIDI output channel then only the part assigned to that channel plays.

The only drawback is (as I think was mentioned in an earlier post) is that this doesn't pay attention to the keyboard splits of the parts...but I'm not sure you need this when you're working with sequencing software - I guess you could put the different parts on different MIDI tracks?

I hope this helps.

Cheers, IanR

I thought there was a chance you were refering only to real MIDI connection response to the settings.

Essentially then, the remote keyboard switch only responds via real MIDI, not USB MIDI. I find it truly bizarre that there is any difference... why on earth the remote keyboard switch isn't usable by either means. I appreciate the most sane thing to do when MIDI sequencing is allocate an idividual track within a sequencer per end-sound (as it were)... But if a performance's intended programmed purpose is a sound that's actually playable in real time, by two hands, then lack of USB MIDI remote keyboard switch functionality, several takes on several tracks within the sequencer are required to record and play back what one take to one track could have achieved!