Fantom-S and Fantom-X

PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

7 Jun 2007, 22:27
Ok, I'm a Fantom XR user and lately am digging synth sounds, esp, Tricycle, BodyElectric, Shroomy, and more.

I've also been downloading audio clips of "Access Virus",
Little Phatty, V-Synth.

Also been doing lots of reading, so I know the diff between all these units, My question is -

How does the synth sound on my Fantom XR stack up VS the other "Big Boys".

thanks,

Zebro

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

8 Jun 2007, 02:26
In general, Fantoms can replicate most if not all of the classic synth sounds that involve oscillators, filters, ring modulator and envelopes/LFOs. However, with the availability of complex LFOs, modulation Matrix, four stereo tones and other stuff, you can make some really interesting and new sounds which are not possible on analog/VA synths.

If you would like to learn how to create such sounds, throughout two years I have written a book called Fantom TweakBook which describes how to create different sounds, from classic/vintage synths to some really modern complex sounds: http://sinevibes.com/publications/fantom-tb/

You can also check out the "Planet" series sound libraries which include lots of synth sounds. Listen to the demos at least, you will get a glimpse of what your XR is possible of: http://sinevibes.com/soundware/.

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

8 Jun 2007, 04:31
Zebro,

Fantom and Virus has diffenet style of synthesis. Virus has VA syntesis. Fantom's synthesis is ROM sample-based. On Fantom you create sound based on that little samples, on Virus you create sound from total basic: oscilators, modulators, etc. On Fantom, you have lots of ROM sample material to create a VA-style sounds, but it will newer be so good as sound from Virus or other VA or real analog synth. Possible you can be close to, but never same level. Fantom is the best for natural style sounds like piano, hammond, pads, strings, sampler drum sounds etc. and Virus never can compete Fantom in natural sounds. And oposite: if you want to have VA sounds, Virus can do a great job and Fantom can not beat Virus in VA.

I am a Virus owner, I used to owned Fantom as well.

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

8 Jun 2007, 11:48
Thank you Artemio and Hawkens.

Artemio: Yes, I've allready read, Tweak Book 3 and listened to 3 Planet demos: (Very Good) The Fantom Mega Pack is on the top of my list. The Tweak book really helped and I"m lookin forward to 4 and 5.

Hawkens: Ah, the Virus, wanted, but not in my budget.
Yes, I know what your saying. Rompler VS VA. The Virus would be my first pick at a second synth. I'm just not sure I Need one. ( i just know i want one.) .....then there is that dual filter with sync .............

But the Famtom XR, is more than a Rompler. After you start with the PCM sample, you have a complete VA engine. Having said that, if you have a perfect sample to start with..............

The sounds I'm lookin for are synth leads, poly as opposied to mono. I'm a two handed player, so the FX and Pads are not my bag.

thankz again Zebro

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

8 Jun 2007, 13:55
But again.. Virus and other VA can't compete with REAL analog synth sound: something like Moog Voyager.

So what's the point? Virus, Fantom: ROMpler or VA, you just won't get the "vintage" sound you are looking for!

I also want a VA (radias). But not because I want "vintage sound", otherwise I would go for Little Phatty. I just want to learn (virtual) analog synthesis methods, and have as much live performance features I can get.
VA is much more fun and intuitive than ROMplers, and that makes the sound design easier.
Besides, VA can produce sounds real analogs can't.

My vision on ROMplers, VA, and analog.

Analog: vintage, authentic sound - sounds very fat. Sound is created my electric current - the real thing. Has only fat sound to offer - very low-tech (not performance features, not effects etc etc)

Virtual Analog: simulates synthesis of analog synth with digital technologies. Don't sound as fat as analog, but can make other sounds: futuristic stuff. Very performance friendly!

ROMplers: simulate what you hear, the end product.
Synthesis method is very theoretical, not intuitive. Sound synths is not the strongest point, but it has an advantage of recreating every sound you hear: acoustic and synth sounds.

So, every type of synth has cons and pros.

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

8 Jun 2007, 15:20
agreeing with zebro (every choice has its pros and cons), my own choice has been simple:

I use an Access Virus TI (in my case keyboard version) to do all my synth stuff besides the FX-7, which has to deliver anything else. Even though I'm glad that Artemio and others have done some nice FantomX synth sounds enhancements, even with these enhancements the Fantom is light years back from the Virus TI when it comes to flexible programming and useable, highly modulation-friendly synth sounds - live and recording.

So I regard a Fantom as no alternative at all to a good VA, though with some skill you can get it to offer some nice sounds and workarounds for a limited range of "synth situations", e.g. while working on a basic structure for a new song or similar.

On the other hand I personally would not even consider playing a FantomX for a single expressive synth solo, just because I belong to those who find its pitch/modulation unit even worse than others of that kind (which I also dislike).

Jan Hammer, just to name one, would never have been able to play his expressive guitar-like solos with anything else than the far more controllable Minimoog double wheel solution which *all* the best of modern Vintage sound synths still use today for good reasons! The stick from my view is just a toy for those who are happy with rude and clumsy forms of pitch/mudulation without much refinement.

This is just one small example of many more (sound character, programming range, modulation destinations etc.), which could be named, why neither a Fantom-X nor any other ROMpler in the world can replace a good VA or analogue synth.


*But*: a Fantom-X *together* with a real synth (just follow your needs and taste here) make an extremely useable pair of gear which from my view can cover about 98% of what most modern keyboarders will ever need - no matter if live or in the studio!

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

8 Jun 2007, 16:38
Good, some strong opinions!

I have to disagree with "Extremefingers". Though I "get" that he's a analog purist, I think the Fantom Synth CAN pack a pretty good analog sounding punch.

I can assign controlls for cutoff and res. and get that big fat sound. In Multi-Mode ( Performance or 16 track mode ), I can stack it up pretty big and fat. And let's face it, Filters really define that "analog" sound.

So, say playing in a 4 piece band, and letting it rip for 8 bars,
between the Fantom, Moog Voyager, or the Virus, and a panel of blind folded judges.........
Could they pick out the synth given all used org. patches...


I don't think so.

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

8 Jun 2007, 16:46
Have to disagree with Jimknopf to. I would absoutely use the Fantom for a expressive synth solo. But, in all fairness, if I had a Virus in my kit, I would probably reach there first.
But those blind judges........could they tell?

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

8 Jun 2007, 17:29
If you understand sound, can pretty much produce anything with the fantom.
it may or not take some tweaking, it kinda depends where you begin. ;-)


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Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

9 Jun 2007, 08:21
I don't know a single prominent keyboarder who would use a Fantom-X as main source for well done synth sounds. Workstation ROMplers, even with all the very impressive functionality which some of the newer ones offer, are simply not designed to cope with full fledged analog or VA synths.

You should not ignore some simple facts:

- a real synth offers complete sound design from oscillators to complex modulation - a ROMpler can principally offer only a part of that flexibility by definition. It's main purpose is to *re*produce known waves and sounds, not to create them from scratch.

- none of the top keyboarders I know would regard *any* standard workstation as alternative for a real synth.

- a look at the extisting synth sound libraries shows at one glance, that the choice of existing low and very low quality synth sounds on the Fantom X is very high (many plastic sounds, squeaky beeps, dull basses without clear cut character, muddy-mid-heavy pads and so on), while there are extremely few impressive synth sounds on the Fantom itself, and only few more useable ones on all SRX cards together plus sample libraries.

So the pure petition of principle ("The Fantom can deliver anything, if only some skillful designers offer it") does not lead far, if you judge it by the existing quality of synth sounds.

In contrast, on The Access Virus TI I have a huge library of several thousand first class(!!!) synth sounds for free(!!!), which cover a *much* broader *synth* sound scape than anything I have ever heard on a Fantom.
For ROMpler sounds of course it's just the other way round: no synth can offer me remotely the quantity and quality of varoius "bread and butter sounds" which the Fantom offers so good and flexible.

- even workstation developers themselves acknowledge these facts:
Roland by offering the V-Synth/GT
Korg by offering synths plus special synth modules for their workstations
Do you think anybody would invest in these efforts or customers would buy custom synths, if the workstations themselves were even remotely capable of doing the same job?

- finally I have my own ears to compare what comes out of a keyboard, no matter what sound OS is working within it.
So when I'm standing in a shop and compare sounds of machines like a Moog Voyager or Little Phatty, a Dave Smith Poly Evolver, a Nord Lead, an Access Virus or the like with a Korg Trinity, a Yamaha Motif XS or a Fantom X I hear many sound differences between them which are not related to a special patch, but to the machine a s whole.


No, the Fantom is by no means a synth like my Access Virus is, and will never be. I know the potential of the Fantom X OS is underestimated, just because most don't have the skill and patience to dig as deep into it as possible, or as few of you do. I acknowedge that readily.
And not to be misunderstood: I'm glad about any single well done synth patch for the Fantom: it's nice and useful to have some of them on board for small occasions, where this keyboard alone is sufficient to do what a keyboarder needs.

*But*: I still can't do with my Fantom-X what I can do with my Access TI (like vice versa), and one of them still doesn't really sound like the other.

Last point:
If any of you would be capable of delivering half a dozen of the most important Jan Hammer sounds (overdrive Minimoog solo sounds ranging from flute-like to overdriven guitar sounds in Jimi Hendrix style) I will state the opposite of what I said here and say that the Fantom X is a real synth beast. ;-)

Anyone to take the challenge?

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

9 Jun 2007, 11:45
Jimknopf:

Whoa: Please dial it down a little please! ...Challenge?

Could we keep this a more friendly discussion?

And what your "prominent keyboarder" uses- does that really reflect on us mere "mortals". There budget is a little more .."prominent"..

For example, mabey you have a gig that requires "Jan Hammer" solos all night, or a a gig doing movie scores for Tim Burton movies. Then you DO need a Virus. (and 20 PC's running Gigastudio)

But most of us ( the great majority) , use Piano, EP, and Hammond sounds all night on most gigs.

No, I don't want to go head to head with a Fantom X against a Virus. That's just silly. Really, I like the Virus (and BTW, lucky you).

I just think ( and I'm not alone) that the Fantom X is a Hot little synth.

bye now!

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

9 Jun 2007, 11:48
Jim,

I agree with your long point ... but there does come a point when 'good enough' IS, in fact, good enough ...

'Cause if you're talking live ... I think the Fantom X can deiliver fine synth sounds ...

In the studio (for a recording that I'm not going to replicate live on the X) ... I'd probably reach for something else first in that category ...

But to me, the Fantom X is first and foremost a live performance instrument that can also be extremely useful in studio/recording situations ...

... but to suggest that the X is a replacement for EVERYTHING is not something I agree with ... and is a bit ridiculous to suggest ...

However ... if a live situation, when having less gear and more integration is a good thing, I think the Fantom X will do just fine ... actually, a lot better than fine ...

The importance of absolute sound decreases rapidly in a live situation, and other factors, like the basic material and the actual performance take on much a bigger role ...



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Roland Fantom X7, Alesis Fusion 6HD, Novation X/A-Station 25, Alesis Micron

some tunes and whatnot ...
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=405125
Some tunes and whatnot ...

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=405125



some tunes and whatnot ...
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=405125

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

9 Jun 2007, 12:20
@zebro: don't worry: I'm very calm, just disagree about the degree of the Fantom's capability of doing a VA or analog synth's job.

"Challenge" was not meant personally at all, but concerning a sound design job, just as an example: I like some Jan Hammer sounds for live play. It's already hard to redo them on a VA instead of a Minimoog, and I can't imagine someone getting close on a Fantom X - despite amp modellig in the effects section.

And the mention of prominent keyboarders should just hint at the fact, that they would be the first to use workstations for synth play if that would be a satisfying solution. A comparison with "us mortal players" - a category you can surely count me in, since I have another main profession and do band play just for fun - was not intended. Just a simple hint at how pros use the available gear.

@Diametro:
I like the Fantom as live machine very much and you can be sure I try to learn as much as I can from the tweak book about that.

But the Fantom has 4 knobs for direct sound influence (I know about their multifunctional use), while my Access TI offers 27 (most of them multifunctional), among them three which are freely assignable, besides the others (with the Fantom you can use the four either this way or that).

You probably can imagine what that means for flexibility exactly in live play, and exactly for us everyday keyboarders: On The TI I can have my favourite tasks for each patch on the assignable knobs while still at the same time(!) having immediate access to amp and filter envelopes, effect settings and much more.

Again: it is neither meant aggressive nor as boasting with gear, it's just one of the reasons why The TI for me is "a real synth" and the Fantom something else: a wonderful flexible workstation including some nice synth aspects, but no real synth.

Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

9 Jun 2007, 12:32
Im just curious..
but can you give me an example of a synth sound that you feel cannot be produced with the fantom?


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Re: PCM Synth VS Analog, VA, or Modeling ?

9 Jun 2007, 12:39
Hey JimKnopf,
How would your Access TI sound against an Arp Odyssey MKIII with a bit of external effects?
One, nil !

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